The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary session. The first item this afternoon will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Darren Millar.

Faith Heritage

Darren Millar AC: 1. What action is the Welsh Government taking to promote Wales’s faith heritage? OQ60254

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question, Llywydd. The Welsh Government promotes faith-based heritage through resources, advice and grants provided by Cadw and Visit Wales.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. I met last week with the cross-party group on faith, which had a wide-ranging discussion on the question 'Is Wales doing enough to promote, protect and celebrate its faith heritage?' The conclusion that we reached, after presentations from Nathan Abrams of Bangor University about his work with the Jewish community, and Christine Moore of Addoldai Cymru, was that Wales was doing a reasonable job but could do better, probably like most of my reports in school. [Laughter.]
One of the things that they say was challenging was access to resources, particularly for those prime examples of Welsh chapels—nonconformist chapels—and their inability, sometimes, to attract the resources that they might need in order to make sure that they're in a decent state of repair. Now, you and I will both know that, in many parts of Wales, it is those chapels that are the only public buildings in some communities. So, what action is the Welsh Government taking in particular to promote those excellent examples of Welsh chapels around our country?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, can I thank Darren Millar for that further question, and say that, for the second weekend in a row, I was distracted by this question and went looking on the different websites? And there is absolutely fantastic material to be found celebrating everything that has had such a profound impact on Welsh culture, identity, history, through the faith heritage that we enjoy in Wales.
There is some small piece of good news on the resource front—, as I know Darren Millar will be aware, in that there is to be a new National Lottery heritage fund-sponsored project. It will involve Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. There'll be £1.9 million available for it, and it's going to be called the 'Cherish' programme. There's a dedicated support officer already appointed for Wales. There will be three rounds of applications every year, and the current round—the first round—is open presently; it's open until 11 December. And that will be new resource to add to the fantastic work that already goes on across a whole range of funding streams.
The community facilities programme has been a 20-year programme, bringing buildings that no longer have a faith use into beneficial use for communities, but also, as in the River Dee Centre in Flint, for example, converting a former pub into a church, and a community facility alongside it.
Llywydd, I wonder if you would indulge me for one moment. There was one particular entry on the Addoldai Cymru website, referred to by Darren Millar, which I enjoyed reading and thought I ought to mention it this afternoon. I had you in mind, because this is Yr Hen Gapel, the mother church of the Unitarian 'black spot'—the 'smotyn du'—of Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire, and this is one of the chapels that is now under the care of Addoldai Cymru. It was part of a radical Unitarian culture in Welsh rural settings, and, particularly, it was a rallying call and a rallying place for local people who had been victimised by the Tory landowner, John Lloyd [Laughter.] I knew this would be of particular interest to the person asking this question. He was notorious for evictions during the hungry forties. He evicted Anna Lloyd Jones, the mother of Frank Lloyd Wright, from her home on his estate for voting the wrong way, and, in 1876, he closed the chapel altogether, saying that radical non-Tory voters had breached their lease by voting the wrong way [Laughter.] Three thousand people turned up outside the chapel the next day to protest against his actions, and all of this is commemorated on the website, with far, far more. It is part—it is part—of our faith heritage, and I'm glad to be able to respond to Darren Millar's question by showing that there are some new opportunities for further investment in making sure we take maximum advantage of those buildings and preserve them for the future.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: And for those of you who want to know, it's Capel Llwynrhydowen, near Pont-siân—and viva radical Ceredigion [Laughter.] Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges AC: Diolch, Presiding Officer. Firstly, I'd like to say that there are an awful lot of buildings in industrial areas that were chapels that have become empty. Some have been well changed into very nice flats; others have been left derelict. One of my worries—small chapels are easily converted—is the large ones, the very large ones, of which we have a huge number across south Wales. What happens to them? An internet search found 51 museums in Wales, covering a wide variety of areas, including coal, slate and wool. Wales has got a very proud multifaith heritage. At least three parties in this Chamber owe a lot of their early time to the actions of ministers and other people of religious faith. Will the Welsh Government consider examining the feasibility of a multifaith museum, based upon our religious heritage?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Mike Hedges for that question. I recognise very much the point he makes about the challenge in finding beneficial use for some of those very large buildings that were erected, particularly during the nineteenth century, in Wales. On his specific point about a museum, I think it's important to recognise that the national museum, Amgueddfa Cymru, and many, many local museums in Wales, have items relating to diverse religious faiths and places of worship in Wales. The national library has a collection of archival material from religious communities across Wales, covering many years. Indeed, during my researches for this question, Llywydd, I also found myself on the people's heritage website, which our colleague Huw Lewis was responsible for setting up many years ago, making available free of charge and electronically much of the collection that's there, demonstrating the popular side of our faith heritage. We have an ambitious programme during this Senedd term of investment in a new football museum at Wrexham, a contemporary art gallery, and the redevelopment of the National Slate Museum at Llanberis. And while the Member makes, and I know has made before, a strong case for a museum devoted to telling the story of faith in Wales, I don't think I can hold out expectations that it will be added to the list of ambitions that we are already discharging during this Senedd term.

Joyce Watson AC: When a chapel closes, it often means an important community centre is lost. So, First Minister, I hope you'll find time to visit the former Hermon chapel in Pembrokeshire, which will get a new lease of life as a heritage centre, cafe, and have affordable flats. That is thanks to the efforts of the local people, particularly Cris Tomos, and Planed, and the Welsh Government funding. And that's fantastic news. But, in terms of promoting our faith heritage, could I ask what the Welsh Government is doing to promote the Wexford-Pembrokeshire Pilgrim Way? It's a hugely ambitious and exciting project, and has the potential to become one of Europe's leading pilgrimage routes, with all the tourism and the economic benefits that that will bring.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Joyce Watson for that question, and I congratulate all those people who were involved in the project to which she referred. The pilgrim way in north Pembrokeshire, linking north Pembrokeshire with Wexford in Ireland, linking St David with St Aidan of Ferns in Ireland, is a fantastic project. There are over 1,500 miles of pilgrim ways in Wales, and they are more popular today than they have been for many years past. In terms of tourism and attracting people in, we have a steady number of visitors from Germany, particularly, who come to Wales because of those pilgrim routes and who are attracted to it because of the interest that they have at home.
The Other Voices festival in Cardigan only a couple of weeks ago, a festival bringing together voices from Wales and from Ireland, had a focus on that pilgrim way and other ways in which we can work, potentially not simply with Ireland, but with Cornwall and Brittany as well, to create new trails, drawing on our history from the age of the saints when, remarkably, people from Wales criss-crossed the ocean to go to other parts of the world and formed the world that we are in today. So, for those of you who haven't been to the pilgrim way in Pembrokeshire, I absolutely recommend it, and it's part of a developing story, which I think will have even more interest attached to it in Wales in the future.

Labour Market Survey Data

Vikki Howells AC: 2. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the Office for National Statistics's decision not to publish labour market survey data in October? OQ60218

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the Welsh Government has raised concerns with the quality of labour force survey data for Wales for a number of months. ONS has now set out a plan for improvements, which it hopes will address these issues.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, First Minister. Seemingly, for the first time ever, last month saw a failure to publish data from the ONS's labour force survey. I share concerns expressed, for example, by the Resolution Foundation that this will mean that we will lack reliable data on the shape of the job market, which will hamper our ability to make crucial decisions regarding our economy. What does the First Minister think will be the impact of this decision on policy making in Wales, and does he agree with those commentators who point to the impact of Tory spending decisions on the budget of the ONS being the root cause of the problem?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I think the Financial Times probably summed it up best of all when it said simply that bad statistics lead to bad decisions. And the struggle of the ONS to provide reliable labour force data and some other aspects of its work in recent times is a troubling matter for policy makers. The Bank of England's monetary policy committee has to set interest rates, and it does so at the moment, I think, largely, in ignorance of some fundamental facts about the UK economy—whether the economy is growing and, if it is, at what rate, and whether unemployment is rising and, if so, how fast.
Now, the chief statistician of the Welsh Government published a blog on 12 September, the first day we were back in this Chamber after the summer recess, and it pointed to the labour force survey as being the primary source of labour market data for Wales, but that those figures had become more volatile, that the headline numbers and trends had diverged from one another, and that we now needed to rely on a wider range of sources.
Now, the ONS, as Vikki Howells has said, has been affected by reductions in its budget. In the current spending review period, it's been required to make savings worth 10 per cent of its baseline budget. And it's no surprise, really, that, at a time when it has less money to spend and a greater challenge in collecting data, we end up with the difficulties we've seen in the last month. But, these difficulties, Llywydd, have real-world consequences. As well as the labour market survey data not being published, we haven't had population estimates published either. They've been promised and they've been postponed, and then they were postponed again. Now, the Barnett formula relies on population data. The block grant adjustment, much more important to us now than it was a few years ago because of our fiscal responsibility, also relies upon accurate population estimates. We're now not expecting to see those estimates this side of the autumn statement. There's no doubt at all that it is causing added and prolonged uncertainty for our budget setting—the things that will be of interest to Members in this Chamber—for 2024-25, so we must hope that the recovery plan that the ONS has published will see a resumed publication of these fundamentally important data sets in as timely a way as possible.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, the delay in publishing labour market survey data undoubtedly has an impact on Government policy, and you mentioned in your earlier answer that Governments will have to rely on other information. In the event that the ONS is not able to produce more reliable economic data for some time, what other economic data is the Welsh Government planning to use to better understand the national picture and to underpin its economic policies in the future?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that further important question. He will know that labour market statistics have been published by the ONS today, but the ONS itself says that these are to be read alongside the other data that it uses. For example, it uses real-time data from tax returns to estimate whether or not the number of people in the Welsh economy is growing or shrinking. It says today that it estimates that the Welsh workforce grew by around 600 people in the last month, using that other set of data that it has available to it. The Member will know, I'm sure, as well, that the Office for Statistics Regulation published its review of the difficulties that the ONS has experienced this morning as well, and it too points to other data sources that can be used while the ONS pursues its transformational project—that's what they call it—so that we will have, some time next year, a revised approach to labour market statistics that will render them as reliable as they need to be. In the meantime, the list of alternative data sources is there in today's statistical release, they're there in our own chief statistician's blog, and we're going to have to rely on that wider basket of measures in order to make the judgements that we need to make.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions now from the party leaders. Leader of the Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Last week, First Minister, I ask about the use of WhatsApp when it comes to communication within the Welsh Government. You indicated during that question time session that you did not have WhatsApp on your phone and you did not use it. I wrote to you after the question time session last week. I have not received a reply to that letter yet, although I was copied into correspondence that you and the Presiding Officer had engaged in. Could you confirm today, at the first opportunity since we gathered here in last week's First Minister's questions, that you do have WhatsApp on your phone, and you do make use of it?

Mark Drakeford AC: The answer to both questions is 'yes'.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: I'm grateful for that clarification.
The other point I'd like to raise with you is on Government policy. Last week in question time, the Member of Parliament for the Rhondda and shadow Cabinet member in London called the implementation of the 20 mph speed restrictions 'bonkers'. Do you believe that implementation—[Interruption.] I can hear the Labour benches saying he didn't. I ask you to read his comments, because he said the implementation was bonkers. Do you believe that is a true reflection of the implementation of that speed restriction that your Government has brought in? And if you do agree with his assessment that it is bonkers, what are you doing about it?

Mark Drakeford AC: Fortunately, I have the transcript in front of me, so I can assure you that he did not say what the leader of the opposition says. In fact, if you read what Mr Bryant said, it's clear that he is supportive of the policy. He says:
'Everybody believes that outside a school and a hospital, and a clinic, and a chemist and in some residential areas it should be 20 mph. The thing is, that's nearly every road in the Rhondda.'
So, he was supportive of the policy. He pointed to the fact that, in some places, speed limits go from 20 mph to 30 mph, and sometimes revert to 20 mph again. That's exactly the sort of issue that we will look at as we review the policy once we've had some further months of its practical implementation.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: You do have selective hearing, First Minister. I said that what the Member for the Rhondda said was about the implementation of the scheme. I didn't say it was about the policy. We disagree about the policy as Conservatives and Labour in this Chamber. I said to you that the Member for the Rhondda said the implementation of the policy was bonkers, and, frankly, a lot of people across the length and breadth of Wales believe it is bonkers. What we also saw on Question Time last week was a retained fire service member highlighting how he believed that, sadly, lives might be lost because of the inability for people to get to their fire stations on time to manage fire appliances. There are unintended consequences of this policy, and I don't believe for a minute it was the intention of the Welsh Government to have such an issue, to hold back retained firefighters attending their fire station to go to an emergency. So, can you map out what action the Welsh Government is taking to look at these unintended consequences that your policy has put forward, so that we do not lose fire service personnel and we do not have unnecessary instances of loss of life because of a flawed policy that your Government has brought forward?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, this is a policy that will save people's lives. That is the incontrovertible evidence that lies behind it. It is what has happened in other parts of the world, and, indeed, in many places in England where his party is in charge and where 20 mph zones have been introduced. We believe that, over 10 years, 100 lives could be saved—lives particularly amongst children, who we know are at the greatest risk when vehicles speed in residential areas. That is the basis of the policy, that will be its effect, and asking people to drive a little more slowly in built-up, residential areas, where people are to be found and children want to play, is a small price to pay to gain those rewards. The Government is committed, of course, to reviewing the evidence of the implementation of the policy, and there is interesting information already emerging: over 10 per cent of roads in one local authority are exempt from the default setting of 20 mph; in another local authority, it's less than 0.5 per cent. There is variety in the way in which local authorities have implemented the policy. That's why collecting data, keeping it under review, making sure that it is doing the job we want it to do, in the right way, is exactly what this Welsh Government will do.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Diolch, Llywydd. The UK Government's Cabinet merry-go-round has been in full swing again. A Prime Minister who, in defending a divisive Home Secretary for so long, lost his moral compass has now turned to the architect of austerity for salvation: David Cameron's austerity. His deep cuts, remember, hit the poorest hardest. Yet he once called opponents of his austerity cuts 'selfish'. One way of ensuring that families don't have to choose between heating and eating this winter would be to introduce a new social tariff on energy. There is some support for those on means-tested benefits, but there are 6.3 million UK households in fuel poverty; that's up 2 million in just two years. Does the First Minister agree with me that this should be a priority now, and that it should be a priority for an incoming Labour government too, if that were to be the case?

Mark Drakeford AC: The Welsh Government is on record for many, many months in calling for social tariffs; it's there in the letters that were written by my colleague the Minister for Social Justice and the finance Minister. She'll be writing, I think, now, to her eighth Chief Secretary to the Treasury. That was another casualty of the merry-go-round yesterday. It is genuinely impossible to have orderly conduct of business when, no sooner have you met somebody—and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury is a really important figure in the UK Government as far as Wales is concerned—and explained to them the issues with which they need to grapple, they're gone and the next person comes through the door. It really is chaotic in the way that this has been carried out. But in that correspondence, we have called for social tariffs. I met yesterday with other colleagues with the regulators—Ofgem, Ofwat, the others who have an important part to play in securing social tariffs. There's a very mixed picture out there. There are some pretty significant things happening in the water industry, for example, which are commendable, but at the other end of the spectrum, when it comes to the electronic devices on which we all depend these days to live our lives, only 5 per cent of users take advantage of the social tariffs that are there in that industry. There's a great deal more to do, and if we could persuade the UK Government to be purposeful in the pursuit of a proper social tariff regime, then the people we are most concerned about would have the most to benefit.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I agree entirely that chaos in the UK Conservative Government is holding back help from people who need it most. But we have to look at inaction by the Welsh Government too. In August, the Welsh Government expert group on the cost-of-living crisis said crises demand immediate action from Governments. They said a failure to take preventative action in the short term will lead to more people suffering economic hardship. The report made 29 recommendations. Three months on, we've seen little or no movement from Welsh Ministers.
The slow progress in implementing the new Warm Homes programme, identified by the expert group as being so important, delays the upgrading of energy efficiency in fuel-poor homes. Similarly, a pilot for free bus travel for under-16s hasn't been introduced. Without the provision of free school meals being extended to years 7 to 11 for those households in receipt of universal credit, we will continue to see pupils fall through the net.
If the barrier is a lack of money from the UK Government, and if the polls are to be believed, would the First Minister be equally critical of Keir Starmer because of his apparent determination not to make a pledge on fair funding for Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: I recognise a few offcuts from this week's five-point plan. Not every Member here will know that cometh another week, cometh another five-point plan from Plaid Cymru. I've seen it, though, and recognise some of the offcuts from it in what the leader of Plaid Cymru had to say.
The leader of Plaid Cymru is obsessed with being let down by a Labour Government that hasn't even been elected. I say to him, as I say many weeks: what will he do to make sure that we have that Labour Government that he is so keen to criticise? Let's get that Government and then let's work with it to make sure we can do some of the things that he and I would wish to see for people in Wales.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I'm glad that the First Minister has recognised my frustration at Keir Starmer. I think there's real disillusionment at Keir Starmer's Government before it's even been formed. The truth of the matter is that whilst he may pick away at the five-point plan that was put forward by Plaid Cymru, there's a 29-point plan put forward by the expert group on the cost-of-living crisis that the Welsh Government isn't getting on with implementing.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: When the new Warm Homes programme is ultimately introduced, as I hope it will, I would like to know if you can give us an assurance on one point specifically. I would like an assurance from the First Minister that the criteria for who qualifies will mean that those suffering from some of the most serious illnesses will be included. According to Marie Curie, only respiratory conditions, circulation issues, and chronic mental health issues have been noted by the Government as those that would qualify for the less strict criteria. The risk of this would be to exempt those people who suffer from motor neurone disease, for example, or those suffering from cancer. Despite raising this with the Government, I understand that there's been no response by the Minister, as of yet, to requests asking for terminal illness to be added to the list of qualifying illnesses. Can I ask whether the First Minister is willing to make that commitment today?

Mark Drakeford AC: What I can say, Llywydd, is that the Minister is continuing to discuss with Marie Curie and other parties who want to have an effect on our programme as a Government, and when the document is published, people will be able to see the impact made by people outwith the Government, with the ideas that they want to share with us. We are continuing to have those discussions. The leader of Plaid Cymru and others will have to wait until that work has been concluded and the document will be ready to be published.

Business Legacy Planning and Succession

Luke Fletcher AS: 3. What support is the Welsh Government providing to businesses in terms of legacy planning and succession processes? OQ60257

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Luke Fletcher for that, Llywydd.The Welsh Government supports efforts to ensure that Welsh-based companies remain in Welsh hands. The £25 million Wales management succession fund, managed by the Development Bank of Wales, is one example of the support provided by the Welsh Government in succession and legacy planning.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for that response, First Minister.

Luke Fletcher AS: You rightly mention, of course, the Wales management succession fund worth £25 million, which has had successes, to be fair. However, the current level of resources made available through DBW to promote succession processes is arguably unequal to the scale of the challenge that faces us in relation to our missing middle. At £25 million, the Wales management succession fund represents only 1.32 per cent of the total £1.9 billion currently managed by the development bank. So, does the First Minister agree that in order to retain Welsh businesses and help them to grow beyond what would be classed as a small business, then the succession fund needs a greater share of that £1.9 billion?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Luke Fletcher for his recognition of the success that the fund has had. Since its inception on 20 November 2018, the fund has funded 199 succession investments worth over £72.4 million. And you might ask: how can a fund of £25 million support investments of £72 million? Well, that's because it is a loan fund and a circulated fund, so the money goes out and it comes back in the way that the fund is operated. As far as I am aware—and, of course, DBW published its most recent annual report only recently—the fund is both well managed and successful. There is always more we could do if we had more money, but in this area, as everything else, there is a finite sum of money. We rely on the Development Bank of Wales to do many things on our behalf in many areas, not simply succession planning but in housing and in other fields as well, and at the moment, the £25 million going out and coming back and allowing us to make further investments is doing the job we've asked it to do.

James Evans AS: First Minister, succession planning is very, very important for any organisation. I'm sure many of your front bench colleagues on your own side of your party would love to know your own succession plans for when you decide to leave office. But wider than that, a report commissioned by the Welsh Government did state that businesses were not aware of the different succession options that were available to them, and many businesses didn't start on succession planning at an early enough stage in their business life. So, First Minister, what work has Business Wales done along with the Welsh Government and the development bank to engage with businesses around the succession planning options that are available to them?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I agree that there is evidence that many businesses leave it too late to think about succession planning. They have a responsibility too. Business Wales and Social Business Wales offer specialist advice to those companies looking to craft their future beyond the ownership that they have enjoyed while those businesses have been in development. I would urge any of them to make sure that they engage with the sources of help and guidance that are available to them, because they are expert in nature and they have access to very significant funds, as we've already heard today. The help is there. There is a responsibility on businesses themselves to take advantage of what is available.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: We need that strong business succession and legacy planning to grow and develop our self-made Welsh businesses, and part of that could indeed be with employee ownership models, as supported by the Co-operative Party and indeed within our Welsh Labour programme for government. But would you, First Minister, agree with me that we also need to build on the legacy of excellent foreign direct investment, as exemplified by the over 50 years of investment now by Japanese companies in every single part of Wales, which I believe he discussed with the ambassador and with Rob Wilson, chief executive officer of Sony UK Technology Centre, on his visit to Sony Pencoed last week?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for that. Thank you for what he said about the record we have in Wales. I answered a question from Luke Fletcher on this only a week or two ago, where we celebrated the fact that there are 66 employee-owned businesses across Wales, and that number is growing all the time. So, that is a measure of success in growing those indigenous businesses, but it's not a choice. I think that’s the mistake some people make. They pose these things as though you can have one or the other, whereas the policy of the Welsh Government is both to support the continued ownership in Wales of indigenous Welsh companies but at the same time to welcome long-term patient investment from overseas in the Welsh economy, and nowhere, really, is that more clearly exemplified than in the 50-year history of Japanese investment. I know that, as the local Member, Huw Irranca-Davies was there in Sony, it was a pleasure to have the company of the Japanese ambassador once again in Wales. He’s been a very regular visitor to Wales during his tenure. We were there to celebrate, Llywydd. We were there to celebrate that history of sustained investment in the Welsh economy, on which many thousands of jobs depend. When you have foreign direct investment of that sort, committed to the long term, committed to creating a network of businesses, self-supporting, looking to the future, then that is just as much an important part of our economic future as is the work we do to make sure that businesses born in Wales can stay in Welsh hands.

Homecare

Heledd Fychan AS: 4. What discussions have been held between the Welsh Government and Rhondda Cynon Taf Council regarding the council's decision to privatise the remaining homecare services under its control, without looking at alternative options? OQ60255

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, it's a matter for each local authority to decide how best to provide or arrange care services for its citizens, within their statutory duties. No local authority needs the permission of Welsh Government in order to act on the responsibility provided by their democratic mandate.

Heledd Fychan AS: But in an open letter to the Welsh Government, Unison Cymru have raised a number of concerns about the decision to privatise the remaining portion of in-house homecare in Rhondda Cynon Taf, asking you to intervene, claiming that the decision was made without proper consultation with trade unions. They are concerned about the potential impact on the council's ability to respond to future failure of private sector providers, which has been seen elsewhere in Wales, and the perceived contradiction with the goal of the rebalancing care and support Act, to shift care provision towards the public sector. So, who’s got it right, Prif Weinidog: RCT council or the 1,500 local people who’ve signed the petition, care workers and their unions, who are calling for care to be put before profit?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, it is a matter for RCT council to consult with its workforce and with its local population, and to do that in a way that makes sure that those voices are heard and are taken into account in the decision that the council will have to make. I've seen the paper that went to RCT's cabinet. It's 60 pages long. It includes a detailed equality impact assessment. I don't think it supports the Member's suggestion that this was somehow an unconsidered change by the local authority. And, Llywydd, all local authorities have choices to make between direct and independent sector provision in social care. Plaid Cymru Ceredigion, for example, privatises all its long-term domiciliary care. While I was preparing for questions today I viewed a very good—an excellent—video, available on Gwynedd Council's website. It’s called ‘Social care is changing’. It sets out the way in which the council makes the case for moving to contracting with one provider in each of its 16 patches, and it does it, I thought, in a very convincing way.
RCT’s proposals will see all reablement and intermediate homecare provided in-house. The 10 per cent of long-term care provided by the local authority will join the 90 per cent of that care already provided by the independent sector. No jobs will be lost, no change will take place in the level of service or care provided to residents. Llywydd, social care is changing, from Gwynedd to RCT, and it would be wise of the Member to recognise that fact.

Joel James AS: First Minister, as we have heard, residents living in RCT are concerned about the recent announcement regarding long-term domiciliary homecare services within the county borough and how it will be outsourced. Removing all long-term domiciliary homecare services provided by the local authority will inevitably mean that they will lose the expertise of staff and ultimately the operational ability to run these services if the local authority ever decided at a later stage to bring them back in-house again.
I share my colleague's concerns about the lack of due process over this situation, and it's also concerning to see that, once again, RCT council are pleading poverty as the main driving force behind taking this decision, despite having around £220 million in useable reserves, which as you no doubt agree, First Minister, is a substantial amount of money. With this in mind, what steps are the Welsh Government taking to ensure that local authorities in Wales are properly utilising their available reserves before implementing cost-cutting measures such as this? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I agree it's very important that local authorities make good use of their reserves in these very, very difficult financial times, and I think that the record shows that they are doing exactly that. I don't understand the point the Member makes about a lack of due process. He says to me he's concerned about a lack of due process. What exactly—what due process does he think has not been followed by a local authority that takes a report to its cabinet, publishes that report, makes it available for its trade unions and its local population, who will make all the necessary changes that it seeks to make in full council, on the democratic decision making of the council? I'm not quite sure where due process is lacking in all of that. Nor do I agree with him that it is inevitable that expertise will be lost. All those currently working for RCT will be offered to be transferred into any new arrangements. And my understanding of what the council proposes is that it will mirror the change that has been brought about in Gwynedd and other places—a commendable change—in which workers, instead of having a rigid task list, will be told that they've got a quarter of an hour here and half an hour there, and they've got to travel around in order to provide domiciliary care. People will work on a patch, they will know their users, they will exercise judgment in how much time somebody needs on any particular day.
If we're being ecumenical in this, Llywydd, as well as happening in Gwynedd, lots of this was developed in Monmouthshire, under a Conservative administration, with a model that they developed in part of the county there. I think that model is being taken up in other parts of Wales. I think it helps recruitment, it helps retention, it means that people develop new sources of expertise and greater job satisfaction, and I hope that those benefits will be found for residents in RCT as well.

Oral Cancer

Jane Dodds AS: 5. Will the First Minister make a statement on oral cancer rates in Wales? OQ60239

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I will in just a moment, if I can find—. Here I am, I apologise for that. Llywydd, regrettably, despite being a largely preventable disease, oral cancer rates have been rising in Wales, in the United Kingdom and globally over the last 20 years. Mouth cancer is strongly linked to smoking and heavy alcohol consumption, and is most often experienced by people aged between 60 and 69 years of age.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you for the response.

Jane Dodds AS: This month, November, is Mouth Cancer Action Month where we're concentrating on, as you said, sadly, the rising rates in oral and pharyngeal cancer. As you say, oral cancer affects everybody of all ages, but sadly, it spikes in people between the ages of 60 and 69. And sadly, in men the mortality rate is double that of women. Early detection is really important—90 per cent survival rate and it drops to 50 per cent later on. The Age Cymru report highlights the concerns around lack of availability of NHS dentists for older people and how they struggle to be able to access those for normal check-ups that may detect mouth cancer. So, once again, the issue comes back to our concerns, which everybody has raised, including my constituents, around access to NHS dentistry. Could you please outline the Welsh Government's plans, looking at increasing the access of NHS dentists to everybody, but particularly to older people? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you to Jane Dodds for the question, Llywydd.

Mark Drakeford AC: I had the opportunity yesterday to discuss the question with the chief dental officer in Wales. I thought that his views on this were very interesting, because he told me that he did not think that dentists were necessarily the best front-line service as far as oral cancer is concerned, because oral cancer consists of three different types of cancer—lip cancer, mouth cancer and throat cancer—and it’s only the middle of those three that dentists are trained to identify or to report on into the system.
It's also the case, he told me, that those people for whom we are most concerned, in the way that Jane Dodds said, are amongst those people least likely to visit a dentist. Even when dental care is available for them, they don’t present for dental treatment. So, the services that are there in order to make early detection—. And Jane Dodds is absolutely right. There is a 90 per cent of surviving with early detection and only a 50 per cent chance of having that cancer cured if it is detected later. Dentistry, while an important part of the system to respond to it, relying on it will only be a part of the answer.
As far as availability is concerned, then the Member will know that we have a new dental contract in Wales. Since April 2022, more than 0.25 million new patients have received a full course of treatment here in Wales. So far this year, 44,000 new patients have received urgent care through the dental service in Wales. And health boards are now reporting that they have more appointments available for urgent care than are being sought by patients. That is the result of the success of the new contract, and there's more to be got from that contract in the future.
In the meantime, there is a job to be done of building up routine capacity for NHS dental care. It involves, as I've tried to make the case many times on the floor of the Senedd, diversifying the workforce, so that we do not have dentists routinely doing things that you do not need the skills of somebody trained over five years and more in the most complex cases to be doing routine tasks that can equally clinically successfully be carried out by other members of the dental workforce.
In the summer, Llywydd, I visited a dental practice in Swansea with a very progressive dental head doing exactly that. They are taking on hundreds of new patients because of the way they now organise the services that they provide. There’s more that we can do to make better use of our current dental staff by supplementing them with others who can help to do the routine parts of dental care, freeing up dentists to do the things that only a dentist can do.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thanks, Jane, for raising this important issue. According to Public Health Wales, the incidence rate for mouth cancer has increased year on year since 2002. Last year, over 100 people died with oral cancer. The BDA states that nine in 10 people survive oral cancer with an early diagnosis. But, with NHS dentistry in tatters, it is—you know, for the detection of cancer, dentists are important. The fear is that many people will not get a timely diagnosis.
We all know that smoking tobacco is one of the main causes of oral cancer. In the King's Speech, the UK Government announced legislation to raise the age of sale for tobacco, ensuring that no one currently aged 14 or under can ever be legally sold cigarettes or other tobacco products. The tobacco and vapes Bill also includes measures to curb youth vaping and plans to provide extra funding for local stop smoking services. First Minister, will you join me in welcoming this announcement, and will you commit to redoubling your efforts to stop smoking in Wales, as called for by Cancer Research UK? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, it is undoubtedly the case that a great deal of oral cancer is preventable. It's preventable by people giving up smoking, by reducing the amount of alcohol they consume. And the fastest rise in oral cancer is actually in throat cancer and that is most directly linked to HPV infections, and improving the rates of vaccination for HPV in Wales will be another important preventative measure. Wales has been part of a four-nation consultation that lies behind the measures outlined in the King's Speech. If there is more that we can do to reduce smoking in future and to deal with e-cigarette use amongst young people, because that's the other part of that consultation, then it will have the support of the Welsh Government.

The King's Speech

Delyth Jewell AC: 6. What assessment has the First Minister made of the impact on Wales of the recent King's Speech? OQ60260

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the King’s Speech lacks both the ambition and the practical proposals to address the challenges faced by Welsh citizens. As far as this Senedd is concerned, a key concern will be whether the UK Government respects the Sewel convention in this session of Parliament.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Prif Weinidog. Chaos is back at No.10—perhaps it never went away. It seems that we have a Westminster Government that is unravelling at such a speed, the King's Speech, only a week ago, seems like half a lifetime ago. But we shouldn't allow that list of missed chances to go unmentioned: Westminster's failure to act on the cost of inequality; the Tories' perverse decision to condemn future generations to impoverishment and pollution by drilling for more oil and gas. The impact of that speech on Wales will be seen in people being poorer than they need to be and our earth being dirtier than it might otherwise have been; those missed chances to make a better life for people living here. Prif Weinidog, no future Westminster Government of any hue will ever deliver a programme tailored and designed to address our nation's needs. Isn't it time we called time on this unequal nation, which handcuffs us to a future written by remote, faraway figures and declaimed by a King on a throne?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I agree that the King's Speech does not measure up to the challenges faced across the United Kingdom. The Financial Times called it 'thin gruel', a 'damp squib'; it said that, by playing politics over the energy transition, the King's Speech further dents the UK's reputation as a leader on climate change. So, there's a vast amount that is missing from that King's Speech. Where was the mental health Bill, Llywydd, that we've been promised for so long and that we would have been able to have used to do good things here in Wales? Nothing on the economy, nothing on inflation, nothing on the NHS, nothing on immigration, either. This was a King's Speech for a Government in its dying days, a Government that knows that its time is up, a Government that has no ambitions to be in Government for the future.
And as for the chaos that Delyth Jewell referred to, had it ever gone away, we have seen, Llywydd, we have seen the foul-mouthed, misogynist, paranoid atmosphere that pervaded 10 Downing Street defended week after week here on the floor of the Senedd during the COVID emergency. How many weeks do I remember being told by Conservative politicians here that we should follow what was taking place in England? Well, we know—we know—what was taking place in England and it is utterly indefensible. I look forward to hearing an apology—look forward to hearing an apology from Conservative politicians here at the things that we have learnt. [Interruption.] No, we won't hear it. We won't hear it. We know, because he is still defending the sorts of foul-mouthed, misogynist—well, he shares the misogyny, we know—the foul mouthed misogyny that was characteristic—[Interruption.] Yes, I know.

Andrew R.T. Davies rose—

Mark Drakeford AC: Yes, yes. Look—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: No—

Mark Drakeford AC: You have a go now.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Andrew R.T. Davies, no. No, no. No. I'm sure the First Minister will want to reflect on the direct accusation that he made to the leader of the opposition there. I don't think there was anything misogynistic in Andrew R.T. Davies's contribution today.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I'll agree with that, Llywydd. I heard nothing misogynistic today.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Laura Anne Jones.

Mark Drakeford AC: [Interruption.] Yes, yes. I see it all the time, Llywydd. He thinks he can say anything he likes about anybody else. The minute—[Interruption.] The minute—the minute—you draw attention to his own record, he's on his feet complaining about it. [Interruption.] There we are, yes. There we are. I can tell you. [Interruption.] Yes, yes.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I'm going to ask Laura Anne Jones now to carry on. Misogynistic remarks are made by Members in this Chamber. I've been subject to one of them myself not too long ago.

Mark Drakeford AC: Indeed.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, in the recent King's Speech, of course, we saw the UK Government commit to reforming the housing market, making it cheaper and easier for leaseholders to purchase their freehold. They've safeguarded the future of our football clubs, which many of you will be happy about, for the benefit of our communities and fans. They've tackled antisemitism, where lessons, of course, could be learned by your party, and ensured that the Holocaust is remembered across our United Kingdom, and also ensuring people in Wales will be better protected from crime, anti-social behaviour, terrorism and illegal immigration. First Minister, the question I want to ask this Welsh Government is: will the Welsh Government drop their focus on constitutional reform and gender ideology, and focus on matching the UK Government's ambition in this programme of reform in areas devolved to the Senedd?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Member read out a long series of Bills, only one of which is one in which there is a devolved interest, and, on that one, on leasehold reform, we will continue to have our conversations with the UK Government, because I believe that leasehold reform is better tackled on an England-and-Wales basis. We are yet to learn from the UK Government when that Bill will be introduced, and, unless it is introduced quickly, then the chances that it will complete its parliamentary process before a general election are vanishingly small. So, if the Member would like to add her voice to ours in trying to make sure that that Bill comes forward in a way that gives it a fighting chance of reaching the statute book, that will be very useful.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you, Presiding Officer. We hear a great deal, First Minister, from the Conservatives that they don't like additional politicians. Well, we discovered yesterday that David Cameron, of course, is the hundred and seventeenth new member of the House of Lords since the last general election—117 cronies, party donors and failed politicians stuffed in a corrupt and unelected Chamber that seeks to govern this country. First Minister—[Interruption.] First Minister, the Chamber of the House of Lords is now bigger than the presidium of the National People's Congress of China, and not one of them are accountable to any of us. Do you agree with me, First Minister, that Gordon Brown's report demonstrates a way forward where we can abolish the House of Lords and where we can have a Chamber that's elected to represent all of us, even them? [Laughter.]

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Alun Davies for that. He is right that Lord Cameron now swells the ever-bloated ranks of the House of Lords, and the Gordon Brown report, Llywydd, which recommends a very slimmed-down House of Lords, with direct elections to it, with guaranteed representation for the nations and regions and a new task in safeguarding the constitution, including safeguarding devolution here in Wales, would make a far better entry into any King's Speech than anything we saw last week.

Private Finance Initiatives

Mike Hedges AC: 7. What is the Welsh Government's approach to private finance initiatives? OQ60214

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Welsh Government was a staunch critic of previous forms of private finance and did not undertake any new PFI schemes. As a result, we are largely insulated from the very high revenue cost consequences that have to be paid by public bodies in other UK nations.

Mike Hedges AC: I thank the First Minister for that response. At the Senedd, we continue to owe thanks to Rhodri Morgan for not following Westminster in using PFI to fund developments. They have proved costly for those who have entered into the contracts, but highly lucrative for those who have the contracts. The Welsh Government has recently supported a mutual investment model, which is effectively PFI without facilities management. Will the Welsh Government reconsider the use of this means of financing capital expenditure?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank the Member for what he said about those decisions—now 15 years and more ago—because I can tell him that the decision of a Labour Government at that time not to join in with the private finance initiative was a brave decision and very much criticised by others at the time. What a good decision it turns out to be, because those parts of the United Kingdom that went wholesale for that PFI model are now paying the price for it. Audit Scotland warned that, in Scotland, Scottish taxpayers will have to face a bill of £40 billion in order to fund £9 billion-worth of projects: £9 billion-worth of assets, £40 billion needed to pay for them. That is what we have avoided here in Wales. In the English health service, there are trusts that lose millions and millions and millions of pounds from patient care every year simply to pay the interest on the loans that were taken out for PFI schemes.
Here in Wales, we have a hierarchy that we use when it comes to capital investment. We start always with the cheapest money, and that is the capital grant that comes to Wales that we deploy. When we run out of grant, we use the capital borrowing powers that we have as a Welsh Government. When we run out of that, we have funded local authorities and others with revenue money, so that they can use their borrowing capacity. When we run out of that, and we're still not able to do the things that are vital to Wales, then we will use the mutual investment model, because, while it is more expensive than those other forms of capital, it still provides us with a model that defends us against the flaws of PFI, and allows us to go on investing in schools, in hospitals, and other forms of vital public infrastructure that we're simply not able to fund in other ways.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: And finally, question 8, John Griffiths.

Regional Inequalities

John Griffiths AC: 8. Will the First Minister outline the Welsh Government's policies to address regional inequalities? OQ60256

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, our regional economic frameworks were co-produced with partners. They're based on evidence and on agreement. They set out a shared approach around a common set of economic priorities, and a commitment to work together to boost existing strengths and unlock new potential.

John Griffiths AC: First Minister, thankfully, the UK seems set fair for a badly needed Labour Government at the next general election, enabling a partnership with Welsh Government to address regional inequalities in the UK and Wales. Would the First Minister agree that the Gordon Brown report offers us a route to the sort of progress we need to see in Wales, with substantial investment and funding for rail and other infrastructure, together with green steel, with further redistribution of UK public sector jobs to Wales, and enhanced support for economic clusters, such as the semiconductor industry, which recently had a boost in Newport, with the Vishayacquisition of Nexperia?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, first of all, Llywydd, can I welcome the announcement of that investment in Nexperia, safeguarding those jobs that were put at risk by a decision of the UK Government, which they then walked away from the consequences of that decision, but where we now have the prospect of new investment? Because the future of the compound semiconductor cluster in the south-east of Wales is a shining example of what we can achieve when we have genuine regional policies in Wales.
Now, a recent report from Harvard University and the King's Fund—King's College London, I beg your pardon—was endorsed by former Prime Ministers Blair, Brown and John Major. And what that report did was to call attention to the need for sustained policies, sustained policies that aren't chopped and changed by the UK Government before you've even got used to the last policies that they said they were adopting. And here in Wales, of course we look forward, Llywydd, to a future in which there is genuine investment in our infrastructure. It's astonishing to anybody who looks at it that our capital investment next year from the UK Government will fall by 8 per cent in Wales, just at the time when it's needed more than ever before. But using our approach, that partnership approach, that approach that is based on the evidence that the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has provided to us, that gives us that continuity and certainty of policy, and then we will make the very best use of whatever investment is available to us in Wales, and guarantee that regional economies, in all parts of Wales, have the support they need to thrive.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item will be the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There have been two changes to this week's business. Firstly, the statement on primary care has been withdrawn. Secondly, I have added a debate on the Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations 2023, for which a suspension of Standing Orders will be required. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers, available to Members electronically.

Darren Millar AC: Trefnydd, can I call for a statement from the Minister with responsibility for communications and technology in Wales? This is in respect of the mobile telephony infrastructure across the country. I appreciate that telecoms is not a devolved matter, but of course the planning system is, and much of the infrastructure does require action on the planning system as well. There was a recent report by Vodafone, which found that Wales was one of the five poorest performing parts of the United Kingdom, with half of Welsh constituencies not getting their sufficient access to 5G technology, in particular. In fact, my own constituency of Clwyd West was ranked in the lowest 4 per cent of constituencies in Britain on the index that was developed, with 62 per cent of the constituency having no 5G access at all. And this is on top of the fact that there are still mobile phone black spots in parts of my constituency—and, no doubt, others as well. I do think that this is something that the public want the Welsh and the UK Governments to work together on in order to tackle. I think there are some barriers in our planning system that should be removed in order to make it easier for telecoms companies to be able to put up the sorts of masts that they require, and to share mast infrastructure. I wonder if we could have a statement on that, please.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, as you say, the issue of communications and broadband in general is a reserved matter, and I know that the Minister does work very closely with the UK Government to ensure that we do get the best coverage. In my own constituency, there are areas where we can't even get 4G, so I think it is really important, as you say, that we have access to 5G. I think you're right about planning needs to—. We need to ensure that the planning fits in to all the plans in relation to that, and I will pass on your concerns to the appropriate Minister.

Heledd Fychan AS: Trefnydd, I'd like to ask for a statement from the Minister or the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, regarding the A470. You'll be aware that part of that road is currently closed, between Dolfach and Carno, and that there is a diversion of over 70 miles in place. The hope is that the road will reopen, partially, later this week, but it is such an important road, and there will be a need for significant investment to rectify the road, according to local reports. It might be strange that somebody representing South Wales Central is raising this issue, but it is something that constituents across Wales are concerned about, because it is such an important road in terms of linking north and south.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think you're referring to the collapse, the landslide on the A470. There have been temporary works there, which have been progressed all weekend, and it is hoped that that part of the road will be open at the end of this week. I am aware that this area has been under traffic signals for at least two years, though, while long-term work is being progressed, with permanent repair needed, and the construction for that is programmed to take place in 2024-25, so that is long term. But I think the area you are referring to, that work is continuing today to temporarily reinstate the wall and be able to afford protection to the exposed face beneath the road.

Mike Hedges AC: I'm seeking two statements from the Welsh Government. The first is on the keeping of primates by individuals, which I am very keen to see banned in Wales. Last week, we had a marmoset found screaming and unable to walk after her owners failed to look after her properly. When the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals took the marmoset to the vet, it was discovered that she had severe metabolic bone disease and the white-faced marmoset had to be put down.
The second is on developing the life sciences industry in Wales. Recently, the cross-party group on medical research produced a report on how medical research benefits the people of Wales. The statement I'm asking for should outline how the Welsh Government will prioritise medical research within economic development, and how there can be increased collaboration between the NHS, Welsh universities and industry to grow this very important industry.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As the Member will be aware, the Animal Welfare Act 2006 places a duty of care on anyone responsible for any animal to ensure its welfare. We don't know the number of primates that are being kept here in Wales and, as the Member knows, I worked very closely with the UK Government around the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill. I was very sorry that it was decided not to progress that by the UK Government, and this is work that we will continue to have a look at with officials in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to see what we can do to make sure that this piece of legislation does go forward. I should remind everyone that no person may keep any dangerous wild animal, and that absolutely includes many primates, without first obtaining a licence from their local authority.
In relation to life sciences, Members will be aware of the Welsh Government's innovation delivery plan, which was launched I think about a month ago, and that contained a commitment to develop a life sciences policy statement with clear actions to support the development of the sector in Wales to support health and well-being, economy, education and the climate and nature emergencies. I know that officials are currently engaging across the sector to help better understand the challenges and, of course, the opportunities and the priorities across the life sciences sector, as well as the potential actions to overcome challenges.

Gareth Davies AS: Can I ask for a statement from the Minister for Health and Social Services this afternoon, as I've been contacted by constituents in the Vale of Clwyd who are concerned about the recommendation from the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence on 3 November that modulator therapies used to treat cystic fibrosis should no longer be funded on the NHS?Children with cystic fibrosis have to take multiple medications, endure physiotherapy, sometimes many times a day, blood tests, x-rays and hospital visits just to stay well. Their parents have a huge burden of care and work hard to keep them as well as possible, but the disease, without modulator treatment, is degenerative and disastrous for sufferers.
My constituents have experienced at first-hand the impact this is having on their children. Kaftrio is the most powerful of the modulator treatments. It is already being prescribed to those with CF aged six years and over, and patients have seen their lives transformed by the drug. However, the news from NICE on Friday, 3 November, has called into question whether the NHS will continue to fund the drug, so new patients may not get access to the lifesaving therapies that their older peers have had in previous years. So, can I have a statement from the Government in response to this problem and what action the health Minister is taking to ensure that children living with cystic fibrosis in my constituency can continue to access therapies and treatments when they're needed the most?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, all Governments rely on the advice of independent appraisal bodies, and that obviously includes NICE, to determine how NHS resources are best utilised. You're quite right, NICE did bring forward draft guidance on the use of the cystic fibrosis treatments. There were three treatments—Kaftrio, Symkevi and Orkambi—and they did not recommend the use of these treatments because the cost-effectiveness estimates were substantially above the range that NICE considers an acceptable use of resources. As I said, all Governments here rely on that advice, and a decision by NICE not to recommend the use of these treatments going forward does not affect anyone currently receiving them.

Sian Gwenllian AC: I would like to request a statement on the National Outdoor Centre at Plas Menai in my constituency, please. Almost 18 months ago, I raised concerns as management of this important centre was outsourced. Since then, I have been highlighting to Sport Wales and the Deputy Minister for sport the concerns that are being voiced locally since Legacy Leisure took over. Now, these are valid concerns about working conditions and other developments, but there is another issue that has arisen this week as a local swimming lesson club, Nofio Menai, were told that the Plas Menai swimming pool will no longer be available to them from January next year. Nofio Menai say that there is no alternative swimming pool available to them locally, and I know that there are waiting lists for swimming lessons in leisure centres locally. So, it’s the children who will miss out as a result, and there will also be a reduction in the Welsh-medium provision, which is very important in the area. And the long-standing connection between the centre and the local community will come to an abrupt end and without any explanation. So, I would like an update, please.
And I also want to know what the relationship is between Legacy Leisure, Parkwood Leisure, Swim Wales, Sport Wales and the Welsh Government. I do believe that it is now time for the Deputy Minister to ask for a full review of the situation before more problems arise.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I’m not aware of any engagement that the Deputy Minister has had. It might be best if Siân Gwenllian writes directly to her.

Sarah Murphy AS: I’d like to echo calls for a statement from the Welsh Government about the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence recommendation to remove access to Kaftrio and other drugs for those with cystic fibrosis on the NHS. I feel that a statement is necessary to give the opportunity to raise the voices of our constituents and also raise awareness of this shift that could impact hundreds of children and families. Many families are already going to be impacted, including the Perkins family and their daughter Delilah, who are from Bridgend. They tell me that these drugs can actually increase the life expectancy by 30 to 50 years. So, for NICE to say that it costs too much is not only morally and ethically unacceptable, but also, when you think, it doesn’t stack up financially either, because the cost to treat people with cystic fibrosis is very expensive as well, and they can live really full, wonderful lives if they can have this treatment.
I’d also like to request a statement from the Welsh Government about the impact the pollution from legal discharge into our seas from water companies is having on public health. Last week, I attended a protest on Newton beach, organised by the Newton BuoyantBluetits. There were around 200 of us there campaigning to save our seas. I have met with Welsh Water, who do monitor the environmental impact of these discharges, and Natural Resources Wales do four tests, usually within the summer months, to test the water quality, but they don’t take into account the impact on people’s health. This is not monitored or recorded. Many people have come to me saying they’ve got infections. I had one woman say she almost lost her eye from what her GP believed could only have been an infection that was caught after a discharge into the sea. This is having a tremendous effect on our economy, on our public health, and I would request a statement from the Welsh Government specifically on the impact of these discharges and pollution into our seas. Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, you will have heard my substantive answer to Gareth Davies, who’s left the Chamber, but I’m sure you heard my answer to him.
In relation to your second question, the Minister for Climate Change will be bringing forward a statement next month on water quality.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Trefnydd. May I ask for two statements, please, with the first from the Minister for Social Justice on the ongoing support available for those refugees displaced by Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine? In May this year, the Henderson Hall committee in Talybont received a grant to document the experiences of those involved in the Powys Ukrainian resettlement programme. They did this through first-hand audio accounts in order to ensure that it captured for a lifetime the experiences that refugees arriving in Wales had. They heard directly from refugees about how their lives had suddenly been upended, but a real cause for concern is the future, in terms of their opportunities to remain in Wales, which, sadly, will be the case given the situation with the war.
And the second statement is with regard to the closure of the Centre for Alternative Technology day visitor centre, which we know has put 14 lives at risk. Many of us have visited CAT and are really—. I know Cefin Campbell, in fact, last week, in the 90-second statement, talked about their 50-year anniversary and, next week, we have a reception for them. It's really concerning to hear that this pioneering centre will not only be losing staff, but potentially then, going forward, will be losing that momentum in order to move us to a different perception of how we can use alternative technologies. So, may I ask for that to be a statement, please, from the Minister for Economy? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much. I think it's really important that those stories are captured in the way that you described. I know the Minister for Social Justice continues to work with local government and with the third sector to ensure that we support and integrate over 7,000 guests who've arrived in Wales under the Welsh Government's supersponsor scheme and those who were hosted under the Homes for Ukraine programme. As you're aware, the UK Government is responsible for the overall approach, but I know the Minister is seeking urgent clarity from the UK Government around longer term plans.
We're very pleased to see the event being held here next week. I think many of us have visited the Centre for Alternative Technology. I know the Welsh Government is in discussion with representatives from the centre to try and work with them to explore available support, particularly, as you say, for those individuals and families who will be affected by this decision. I understand that, whilst they are planning to close the visitor centre, anybody who has pre-booked a visit or a conference there won't be impacted.

Russell George AC: I'd like to raise an issue that has been raised already today, Minister, and this is going to add to that request, which is the issue on the A470 of the collapsed road on the way to Machynlleth, just past Talerddig, which happened on Thursday evening last week. Now, this is a long-standing issue. There have been traffic lights on this section of road for some time now. I last wrote to the Minister three months ago asking for works to be carried out. Now, as a result of the works not taking place, there has now been a collapse of that section of road and the road is now totally closed. So, there is significant concern here for emergency services, there's huge disruption because many residents are now using smaller roads, which are not appropriate, and there's a huge diversion in place. Now, it's causing disruption for schoolchildren, postal workers, health professionals, et cetera. So, what I would like to do, Minister, is add to the request today and ask if the Deputy Minister could write to all the relevant Members representing that area, updating them on the short-term solution—what immediately is going to happen, when the road is going to be reopened—and what the long-term solution is so that we can inform residents living in that area.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I don't really have much to add to my answer to Heledd Fychan. I do agree with you that the diversion in place is a long one and will impact many people, so that's why we are targeting to reopen the road by Friday this week. I'm sure the Member will appreciate that it's quite a complex situation and, obviously, public safety is of paramount importance.

Delyth Jewell AC: Trefnydd, our industrial heritage has left us many scars, from pollution in our rivers to respiratory diseases, and one such polluted site is Tŷ Llwyd quarry in Ynysddu in Caerphilly county borough, where there is widespread concern about pollution from a former industrial site. I'm grateful to Caerphilly county councillors for reporting the flooding issue that's been seen today on the public road between Pontgam Terrace and Caerllwyn Terrace. With the heavy rain last night, water that was the colour orange, according to eye witnesses, was running off the mountain and quarry and into a new watercourse, flooding the roadway. Could a written statement, please, set out what assurances the Welsh Government can give that contamination from old industrial sites won't end up in our rivers and in residential areas, and can that statement please specify that local communities shouldn't have to pay to clean up these sites where the pollution is such a concern?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I'm not aware of the flooding you referred to, but, on a broader point, you will be aware of the significant remedial work the Welsh Government has been doing in partnership with many local authorities around old mine works.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Trefnydd, could we have a statement from the Minister for Economy or the tourism Deputy Minister on the 28-day rule on pop-up campsites? Following the consultation on the way forward on the extension of this to 56 days during the latter part of the pandemic, which was in order to help tourism businesses get back on their feet, that extension was hugely welcomed at the time, but there has been no clarity on the outcome of that consultation or the timing, and no clear decisions made. And regardless of the outcome of the consultation, and the Minister's subsequent decisions, tourism operators in Ogmore and right across Wales are just desperate for clarity. Now, there are really tricky issues to deal with, of course. We don't want to see extended pop-up campsites in inappropriate locations, damaging the very beauty of the countryside that people come to visit, or overwhelming sensitive areas to the detriment of the natural environment or local residents. But, in some areas, and I would argue this is certainly the case, for example, in parts of the south Wales Valleys, where the tourism offer is still relatively nascent and emerging, with plenty of scope for further development, then some flexibility would indeed be a real advantage. So, Trefnydd, further to correspondence that I've sent in to the Minister and questions that I've put down, I have to keep on asking: could we have a statement updating us on the timing of the decision on the consultation on the 28-day rule? And if the 28-day rule is not to be extended to 56 days carte blanche, then a piece of work with local government to simplify the application procedure for pop-up or extended-season campsites in less sensitive areas, such as those outside national parks or significant areas of designations, may be a really useful alternative way forward.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I am aware that the Minister for Climate Change has received a number of concerns about extending the permitted development rights for temporary campsites from residents adjacent to sites. That was both during the operation of the 56-day allowance following the coronavirus restrictions, and in response to the consultation that was held at the start of last year to retain the extended period. Further consideration of the issue is therefore required, and she is considering whether 60 days is appropriate, taking account of the consultation responses we've received and when we make the next amendments to permitted development rights. The next set of changes have yet to be scheduled, but at that time I will ask the Minister to update Members.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the Minister for Finance and Local Government: Delivering a Fairer Council Tax

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item is the statement by the Minister for Finance and Local Government on delivering a fairer council tax. I call on the Minister to make the statement—Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Our programme for government commits us to reforming council tax to make it fairer, and the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru reaffirms that aim. Today, I am launching a phase 2 consultation, which provides an update on our latest work to deliver a fairer council tax for the people of Wales. Last year, I carried out a phase 1 consultation outlining an ambitious programme of reforms as the starting point towards a fairer system. We sought views on creating an updated and less regressive council tax structure, committing to regular updates in the future, undertaking a review of all the discounts and reductions, as well as modernisation of the service to taxpayers and improvements in transparency. These elements of the work are now in train.
Turning first to building a new structure for council tax, the evidence is undisputable: the tax bands are now 20 years out of date and their design is regressive. The system places a higher burden on people who live in the least expensive properties. Many responses to phase 1 agreed that we should take action. Some people were worried that this exercise was about raising more tax and that property price inflation seen since the last revaluation 20 years ago would mean that every taxpayer would lose out. To be clear, our reforms would not raise any more money overall. The reforms will raise the same amount of money, but do it more fairly. A fairer system would be one that ensures that those with the advantage of property wealth pay a fairer contribution to local services. I think there is common agreement across the Senedd that this is a sensible and fair ambition, and I have been working closely with the designated Member on this.
In my last update to the Senedd, in May, I said that I had asked the Valuation Office Agency to start preparing for a revaluation of properties—an exercise that would check everyone's property value for the purpose of building a new council tax system. We are now using that information to narrow down the approaches that we could take. The potential options are countless. That is why I have also worked closely with the Institute for Fiscal Studies, a renowned body of experts in taxation and fiscal policy. I want to take this opportunity to thank the IFS for its detailed contribution.

Rebecca Evans AC: I've been clear about the need to engage regularly with the public as we move through this journey, and today I'm setting out examples of ways in which we could look to more fairly spread the burden. We could aim for minimal improvement, focusing on ensuring that the property values are up to date. This is a major exercise in itself. This approach would mean revaluing properties and placing them into a modernised version of the current structure. The results would be a small move in the direction of fairness, with opportunities to go further in future cycles of revaluation.
The modest reform approach illustrates that we could retain the nine-band structure and update it, but also change the tax rates charged for each band, so that bills for the lower bands would fall and bills for properties in the highest bands would rise. This would be a greater move in the direction of fairness. Again, there would be opportunities for it to go further under regular cycles of revaluation.
In the final outlined approach, we could expand the benefits of reform, making the system even more progressive. Here it would mean an increase in the number of bands from nine to 12, adding three new bands: one new band to capture the least expensive homes at the bottom of the scale, and two new bands at the top for homes worth over £1.2 million. It would also redraw the bands so that they are no longer tied to the economic conditions of thirty years ago. In addition to new bands, the amount of tax households would pay in each band would change, with a lot less paid by those in the lowest bands, and more paid by those in the most expensive properties. The result would be a decisive move in the direction of fairness, with a significant reform to the structure of the tax. Members can find out more about these possible approaches, as well as more radical systems, in an IFS report published alongside our consultation.
Our consultation is clear that we have considered but ruled out a proportional system, as we think this presents too much change for some taxpayers in higher value homes. The consultation also commits to consider mechanisms to address and mitigate potential instances of different areas of Wales being affected in different ways by council tax reform, with further work to be undertaken following the consultation. This work could also include an assessment of spatial impact, within rural and urban areas, and in localised areas where house prices have been impacted by the high concentration of second homes.
Whatever decision we come to following this consultation, I maintain my commitment to considering transitional relief arrangements to phase in tax increases for households over a longer period of time. We could implement a new, fairer council tax in April 2025, realising the benefits for those who would see their bills fall sooner rather than later. But I am also seeking views on whether people think later dates could afford us the time to further develop the system, reflecting on the changing economic context over the past year.
I'll turn now to futureproofing the fairness of council tax over the longer term—another important part of our plans. While the consultation launched today is gathering views, I will introduce a local government finance (Wales) Bill to place regular future updates to council tax on a statutory footing from 2030. This was subject to consultation in phase 1 last year, and it is a decisive step in delivering our commitment. The Bill will provide the legislative framework for five-yearly revaluation cycles.
The consultation today also sets out how we aim to improve access to information, raising people's awareness of the roles and responsibilities of the organisations involved, empowering taxpayers, and modernising appeals. There will be no erosion of appeal rights for taxpayers, as this is a fundamental aspect of fairness. But I intend to make the system intuitive to navigate and more efficient.
Turning now to the review of the council tax reduction scheme, which is also continuing, I am pleased the scheme continues to provide financial assistance to over 260,000 households. Year after year this doesn't happen by accident—it represents dedicated work by local authorities who administer the scheme. We need to ensure it remains effective, so my intention is to conduct a technical consultation on some initial changes, to make support easier to access and simpler to administer.
Finally, the consultation I've launched today provides an update on progress we have made in reviewing all the discounts, disregards, exemptions and premiums. We are part way through reviewing each category to ensure the arrangements remain relevant, and to help achieve a fairer system. We've worked closely with local government, local organisations and networks that represent the people of Wales, to look at each of the 53 categories currently in place. From the initial high-level review, four categories have been prioritised for consideration in this consultation. This includes the one-adult discount, also known as the single-person discount, though this can be a misleading term, as the support is more far-reaching than for single people. It provides a 25 per cent discount to over 0.5 million households, making it a significant element of the tax that helps reflect ability to pay. This consultation confirms we have no plans to remove or reduce this discount.
The consultation also sets out our intention to remove the statutory discount for empty properties and seeks views on proposals for two further exemptions, including homes subject to probate, and a new title for the outdated term of 'severely mentally impaired'. The review will continue over the remainder of this Senedd term with a view to amending legislation where necessary using powers that we are seeking through the local government finance (Wales) Bill.
I’d like to conclude today’s update by recognising that council tax reform is complex and challenging work; it requires a real collaborative effort. I'm grateful to local government, valuation experts, the IFS and third sector organisations for their contributions. We have discussed council tax reform a number of times on the floor of this Senedd, and I have kept Members updated along the way. There is no doubt that we could transform the way local tax payers contribute to society. With the launch of this consultation today, we are making great progress. I am pleased to discuss the next exciting stages of this work with Members, and I will, of course, consider the consultation responses carefully.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Sam Rowlands AS: Thank you, Minister, for your statement here today, and also for enabling a technical briefing yesterday, which I know a number of colleagues certainly appreciated.
I just want to come on to the broader point, to start the contribution, of the Welsh Government's medium-term tax policy and some of the levers that are being pulled in relation to this. So far in this Senedd term, we've seen proposals come through around a tourism tax, and now we see an attempt to reform council tax, both of which have graciously been given to local councils to actually face up to the decisions and the impact on their local residents. I certainly welcome local democracy and their voice in decision making, but I wonder what your thoughts are on how you balance that with not being seen to abdicate responsibility when it comes to taxation decisions. Those responsibilities have all been passed down to local authorities.
Then the second broader point is around the mandate for delivering council tax reform. You said in your statement just now that many responses to phase 1 agreed that we should take action. Looking at the consultation responses from that phase 1, actually, when people were asked, 'Do you agree there should be council tax revaluation in 2025?', the majority of people actually said 'no'. When people were asked, 'Do you agree there should be frequent council tax revaluations?', the vast majority of people actually said 'no'. So, whilst your words are carefully formed when you say that many responses agreed we should take action, it's certainly not the view of the majority of people in a consultation.
Just coming on to the statement you've made just now specifically on council tax reform, one of the big challenges, of course, is for individuals who are asset rich but cash poor, which often, as you pointed out in your statement, impacts some of our elderly people, perhaps widowers who are living alone in the family home that they've lived in for decades. I certainly welcome today's announcement that the commitment to continue with the single-person discount is in there, but I'd like to know how you foresee these types of individuals being protected and further supported through any reforms that are being consulted on here today.
Secondly, Minister, you said that your aim isn't to raise more revenue with any of these reforms. It does seem like a lot of effort being undertaken to not see any more cash raised at the end of it, so I wonder what conversations you've had with council leaders on this particular point, especially as, as you know, councils are certainly strapped for cash at the moment when it comes to delivering those services, and how they feel about carrying on with a Welsh Government measure that won't see any change in terms of their revenue that they have to deal with. And, of course, the implications of any reform will have a different impact on different local authorities throughout Wales. So, I wonder which local authorities you think will be most impacted by the reform that's being consulted on.
Linked to this, of course, is one of the long-running issues I've raised a number of times in this Chamber, namely the local government funding formula. It often has an impact, it seems, on areas I represent in north Wales, but also on rural councils that are grappling with the financial formula. It doesn't seem to work well for them. So, Minister, will you and your officials do everything you can to ensure that these parts of the country have their voices heard in this consultation processes, and, of course, that you'll commit to listening to them?
On the IFS document released earlier, they acknowledge that there are always winners and losers in any changes that are taking place, so I wonder if you could outline who you think the losers might be when it comes to the proposals being consulted on here today as well. Because we know that up to around 450,000 homes across Wales could see their council tax levels rise under the proposals being outlined. You've previously said that empathy is at the heart of your thinking on finance issues. I'd like to understand how raising a tax on 450,000 people aligns with the empathy that you feel for them through this consultation. I can also understand why, perhaps, you're considering kicking the can down the road when it comes to implementing any reform, because, obviously, lots of hard-working people, I guess, aren't going to be too pleased with having to pay more council tax as a result of this reform.
My final ask is to remind you of your closing words, actually, from your statement just a moment ago, where you said, and I quote, that you will
'consider the consultation responses carefully.'
I know there have been instances recently on taxation-related consultation where people don't feel like they're being listened to. We noted, on the 182-day reform for holiday lets, that 97 per cent of consultees responded to say that they think that shouldn't go ahead, but they weren't listened to. So, my final ask within this, Deputy Presiding Officer, is, Minister, that you would certainly listen to those consultation responses, and be seen to be listening to them as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm very grateful to the Member for those questions. I would probably start just by bringing us back to the reason why we're looking at council tax reform, and that is because it's a regressive tax, the burden of which falls more strongly on those people who are least able to afford it. We also have a system here that is 20 years out of date, so I think that there is a moral imperative, really, to address some of that regressivity and also to the address the fact that we have a system that is so far out of date. We are the only part of the UK that has had a revaluation in the twenty-first century, but nonetheless, we're still using data that is20 years out of date. It is a complex picture, and I'm glad that the technical briefing has been helpful. I know that the IFS report, which was published alongside our consultation document, will be really helpful for people who want that greater level of detail and to understand the spatial impacts, for example, looking at the different impacts of some of the potential approaches that we're putting in front of people.
In terms of the work with local government, it, I think, reflects some of that complexity, because the VOA places the properties into the bands, the Welsh Government sets the bands and the national differences in tax rates between the bands, but then, of course, it's for each local authority to set the charges, looking at where that band D property will sit locally. So, as you say, it is a very complex situation, which is why we've been working so closely with local government over a very, very long period of time. I was reflecting earlier that this piece of work has been going on for years and years. I came into post in 2018, and even at that time, we'd already set some of this work in train, with the work that the previous finance Minister, the First Minister, had set in train in terms of some of the research that he'd commissioned in this area.
I think the point about discounts and exemptions is really important, because we do understand that there are people who are asset rich but do not have significant funds available to them. And that's one of the reasons why we're so clear that we're not making any changes to the single-person discount, for example. That supports about 0.5 million households and certainly helps some of those households that you've described, as does the council tax reduction scheme, of course. That's there to support people who might otherwise find it difficult to pay their council tax. And we do know that that is undersubscribed at the moment. So, anything that we can do together to make sure that people are claiming what is rightfully theirs is important. And I've also said thatI would be very, very keen to look at transitional relief. I think that one of the things that we learned from the previous revaluation, which took effect in 2005, was that perhaps we'd looked at transitional support too late in the process. But we're doing this right upfront, considering it at this early stage so that we get it right if it's needed in a future scheme.
There will be differences. Changes in local authorities across Wales—. We have seen some areas in Wales where properties have grown in value as compared to others across Wales, and for that reason I'm also considering what transitional support might be required by local authorities as well to manage any changes in that space. And that work is going on through some of the technical sub-groups that we have involving local government and other experts in the field as well.
Absolutely we will be listening to the consultation. I do feel and worry that this is an area ripe for political mischief, I'm afraid, because it is so technical, it is so complex in the way that Sam Rowlands set out at the start of his questions. So, we do need to be very, very clear with people that the overall objective of this is not to raise any more money from people through council tax. What we do need to do is raise that money, the same amount, in a way that is fairer across Wales. And I think if we stand back from that and look at it, I think that it's something that would be difficult to argue against, in the sense that the system is outdated and so unfair to the poorest families across Wales.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I thank the Minister today for her statement on the next phase of this programme of work. Plaid Cymru has been clear for some time that council tax in its current form is a regressive and outdated system that disproportionately affects poorer households. It has been 20 years since the last revaluation of council tax bands in Wales, and in this time the difference in values between properties in band A and properties in band I was at least 9.5-fold. The difference in tax rates is just 3.5-fold. Indeed, I've campaigned on structural unfairness of council tax in my region for many years, and I'm delighted that, thanks to the co-operation agreement with the Welsh Government, we will be delivering reform, which as today's report by the IFS correctly emphasiseshas been long overdue and is unambiguously a good idea.It will ensure a fairer distribution of tax burden and provide much-needed relief for households that are struggling with the ongoing cost-of-living crisis.
As we heard last week from a number of experts at the Welsh Government's tax conference, this is a crucial first step towards building a tax regime that better reflects the needs and circumstances of the people of Wales. In this respect, it is right that the potential options for redesigning the council tax system is now being put out to consultation, and I would encourage as many people as possible to provide their views. As the Minister has already stated, this is a cost-neutral reform. It is not designed to increase the revenue available and it is solely being shaped by a desire to create a more progressive system for funding vital local services.
I also welcome the ambition to ensure that increases in house prices—which, after all, will have happened for the vast majority of properties in Wale since the previous tax revaluation in 2003—will not necessarily lead to higher bills. Indeed, as indicated by the illustrations in the IFS report released today, under some models where we will see the creation of new tax bands, around 70 per cent of households in Wales could either see no change in their bills or a reduction, with around 30 per cent paying more, as befitting the position of those with the broadest shoulders. I wonder, Minister, could you provide a bit more context to this aspect of the programme. What reassurance can you provide to households that have seen large increases in the value of their property over the last two decades that they won't face a sudden dramatic hike in their bills? What work has been undertaken to ensure that the reform is introduced in a way that minimises the potential disruption to the way that households currently manage their budgets?
You also acknowledge that the impact of this reform programme will naturally have different impacts in different parts of the country. Something that the IFS report rightly identifies as an area that should be prioritised in work to come is the impact on rural communities, where there will be a number of asset-rich but income-poor households, particularly within the farming sector. Can I ask how will this be factored into the design of the final model? How will you ensure that the reforms will not disproportionately disadvantage our rural communities? Can I also ask whether further work will be carried out to better understand the link between increased property values and a preponderance of second homes in certain areas?
I also welcome the commitment to continue to explore the potential for a local land value tax as a long-term ambition. While we are obviously very supportive of the measures in front of us, we firmly agree that this should be viewed as the start of a journey rather than the final destination, and we’ll continue to make the case for further reforms on top of this redesigned council tax system. As always, it is essential that reforms of this nature are underpinned by the most robust and up-to-date evidence. On this basis, and looking ahead to future research for further tax reforms, what is your assessment of the relevant data systems currently available to the Welsh Government? Do you agree with me that one way of strengthening this would be to consolidate the functions of bodies, like the Valuation Office Agency in Wales, with the means of producing and analysing specific Welsh data? Diolch yn fawr.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much for those questions. I think that you picked up on an absolutely crucial point that we really need to work hard to communicate to people in Wales, and that is that, just because your house or your property has increased in value since the last revaluation 20 years ago, it does not mean that you will necessarily see an increase in your bills. What is important is the relative position of that property compared to all other domestic properties in Wales, and I think it’s really important, the more we can all do to reassure people of that fact—of the fact that we’re not here to raise any more money overall, and this is about fairness. I think that is really important.
I’m grateful to you for highlighting those figures from the IFS. They’ve done some really important work looking at our minimal reform, the moderate reform and the expanded reform approach, and actually, under the minimal reform approach, eight out of 10 households would see a decrease in their council tax or minimal change through that particular model. In more detail, relating to that minimal approach, it would mean that 18 per cent of households would see an increase, 22 per cent would see a decrease, and 60 per cent would see minimal change. And then, if we move forward to the moderate reform approach, seven out of 10 households would see a decrease or minimal change. So, in more detail, that would be 26 per cent of households that would see an increase, 41 per cent of households would see a decrease, and 33 per cent would see minimal change. And then, just to complete the picture, for the expanded reform approach, again, seven out of 10 households would see a decrease in their bills or minimal change, but in more detail, it would be 28 per cent of households that would see an increase, 40 per cent of households that would see a decrease, and 32 per cent that would see minimal change.
I really do commend the IFS report to colleagues. We commissioned the report, but it is the IFS’s independent report, and I think that we’ve seen some really, really useful work from the IFS. But it does really give you a flavour, really, of the number of households who would see a decrease in their bills under those three potential ways forward.
Nothing that we’re proposing today rules out more significant or different change in the future, so in terms of the local land value tax, for example, we continue to explore the potential for that as a replacement for both council tax and non-domestic rates, building on the findings of Bangor University’s detailed technical assessment, which was undertaken in the last Senedd term. And we will be drawing on a wide range of expertise to develop a clear understanding of what such significant change would look like for Wales, and how it could work in practice. The analysis will include that potential road map for implementation. So, I think that work is really important. Possibly, in the first instance, it might be something where you would see a more appropriate area for that being non-domestic rates, and then potentially moving on to council tax. But that work is definitely something that we intend to pursue so that we’re all able to see what different models might look like in future.
We are exploring also some other tax designs for council tax, for example an unbanded system or hybrid designs. Some of these could be sensible precursors to that local land value tax too. So, I just want to reassure colleagues that, whilst we are putting huge effort into council tax reform, we’re also considering what different models might look like in future, recognising the real keenness that there has been in the Senedd for us to think about those other models. And then I would just relate again to those points I said about transitional support for households that might see an increase in their bills. That's a really important part of our plan, as are the discounts and exemptions that we're currently reviewing at the moment. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, there are 53 different categories. We've got a working group that is making its way through those and exploring if there are any changes that need to be made, or,indeed, any groups that need to be added to that list as well.
And then just finally on the data systems—a point that is really, really important, and, again, it's something that I discuss quite frequently with colleagues in the Welsh Revenue Authority in terms of their capacity in terms of data, but then, also, Data Wales, and what they're doing, thinking about how we can best join up some of the work that Data Wales does, for example, with the digital agenda, the local government improvement agenda—. I think that there is plenty to go at in that space.

Mike Hedges AC: I thank the Minister for her statement. We know we need more regular revaluations. Every 20 years is not acceptable. We know two other things. A local income tax is preferred by the rich, because it will save them money via the many tax reduction schemes they've mastered. But we also know that under the current system those with the least ability to pay spend a greater proportion of their wealth on council tax. Someone living in a property worth £100,000 pays around five times as much council tax, relative to the property value, as someone living in a property worth £1 million. A £420,000 house only pays twice as much as a £120,000 house. To me, this is fundamentally unfair, because the payment is not proportional to the value of the property. And the value of the property is the best indicator I know of personal wealth.
Three questions: why only two additional bands at the top; why not a new band every £500,000 above the planned top band? Secondly, why should single people in the current band G and above have a single person discount? And what is the disadvantage of using actual values rather than bands?

Rebecca Evans AC: I've very grateful for those questions and particularly for the recognition at the start that using data that is 20 years out of date is fundamentally not the right place to be in when you're administering or developing taxes. So, I completely agree with that point, and colleagues will be, I hope, pleased to know that part of the local government finance (Wales) Bill that I intend to introduce to the Senedd will look to have those more frequent revaluations on a five-yearly cycle, beginning in 2030.
In terms of the point about property being a stable tax. It is, as Mike Hedges said, the best proxy that we have for wealth. Of course, council tax isn't just about the property. It's about the property and also the person or people who live within that property. So, the property is part of it, but then when you think about the people, you're thinking about the discounts, the exemptions, the disregards and so on. So, it is a combination of those two things working together.
So, the three possible approaches that we've put forward in the consultation document are just three possible approaches. We've said that we very much welcome other potential ways of raising council tax more fairly. So, those kinds of ideas that Mike Hedges has put forward this morning could absolutely form part of that consultation response I know that he would want to make. When we did think about the number of additional bands at the top end, we were looking at the number of properties, actually, that might fall into those. So, I suppose, when you get past that £1.6 million property, there are fewer and fewer properties that might fall into those bands.
But I very much look forward to any comments and suggestions that colleagues have about alternative ways. Because, as I say, what we have in the consultation document is examples. The IFS has set out how those examples might look in real life. But, of course, we are open to all ideas.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Council tax is currently unfair and desperately does need reform. I think this is an historic first step on the road to a more progressive system, and it should produce clear benefits for those most vulnerable households in Wales.
As we've heard, it is a complex piece of work that will need to reflect a range of factors before its final implementation, and that should include addressing the unacceptable levels of council tax debt and ensuring that everyone who needs support with their bills receives it.One issue that really does bear a consideration is that need to improve the council tax reduction scheme, because, unfortunately, in its current form, the qualification criteria doesn't always effectively support all people on low incomes to meet their council tax liability.
So, can I ask the Minister to outline how improvements to the council tax reduction scheme will specifically ensure that it can support all those who are on low incomes, taking into account how it interacts, perhaps, with the universal credit system? A regrettable consequence of the shortcomings in the current scheme has been to exacerbate debt problems and financial insecurity. We've seen research by Citizens Advice Wales that has shown that council tax arrears is the most common debt issue facing Welsh people. So, could you explain how this reform programme will seek to address the relationship, also, between council tax collection and debt?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm really grateful for those comments. And in terms of improving the council tax reduction scheme, well that is part of our wider approach. There will be a specific, more technical consultation on ways in which we can improve the council tax reduction scheme, but I'll give you an example of our kind of thinking. So, the Member referred to the fact that people who access universal credit often are entitled to other benefits, but don't realise that they actually have to apply for a council reduction scheme, that it's not an automatic entitlement. We know that some local authorities are taking an approach where they are noticing that people are receiving universal credit and then are being proactive in terms of trying to ensure that those people also access the council tax reduction scheme if they are entitled to. So, we're looking at ways in which we can potentially make the application more automatic, if you like, to try and ensure people don't fall through that gap just purely because they don't realise it's another thing that they have to apply for. So, that's the kind of thing that we're considering at the moment. We do have a group with local government, looking at ways in which we can make that system more smooth and more streamlined for people. So, that's another important part of this as well.
I think it's important to remember how far we've come on our journey of council tax reform in any case. So, we've done things which—. We've led the way in the UK, not least with the revaluation, but then also thinking about the work that we've done to ensure that care leavers up to the age of 25 don't have to pay council tax, the work that we've done to ensure that non-payment of council tax is not a criminal offence, because struggling shouldn't be a criminal offence, and all of the other work that we've been trying to lead the way on, particularly in terms of the framework that we have in place with local government in terms of debt collection. So, when people do find themselves in arrears, local government should be taking that person-centred approach to that person, in the first instance finding out what's going on, are they able to claim benefits that they're not claiming at the moment, does that household need more support, do they need a welfare review and so on. So, it should be more person centred than just sending in the bailiffs, if you like, in the first instance. So, I think that that kind of work, the more kind of person-centred and informed approach, is definitely something else that we can be very proud of in Wales.
But I just—. I heard you said 'and finally', so my final plea to colleagues is to share information as widely as you can with your constituents regarding council tax reform, because if constituents think that this might be something that they'd benefit from, if they're in that percentage that will see their bills lower, then we want to hear from them too.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Minister.

4. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: Primary Care

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 4 has been withdrawn.

5. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Services: Evaluation of the Autism Code of Practice and Neurodivergence Update

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: We will therefore move to item 5, a statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Services, evaluation of the autism code of practice and neurodivergence update. And I call on the Deputy Minister, Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you. Thank you very much for the opportunity to update Members on the progress we are making on delivering on our programme for government commitment to improve services and support for neurodivergent people.

Julie Morgan AC: As the statutory code of practice on the delivery of autism services was implemented in September 2021, I felt it was timely to conduct an independent evaluation of the code. The evaluation will be carried out in two phases. The first phase will review the extent to which the duties in the code are being met by current autism services and identify recommendations for improvements. The second phase, commencing in the summer of 2024, will look at how services have implemented the identified improvements from phase 1, and will also look at outcomes for neurodivergent people receiving services.
A summary report on the first phase of the evaluation was published on 9 November, and this important piece of work has highlighted to me that the implementation of the code is enabling us to build on an already improving service context. Of particular note is the significant influence that the code has had on raising awareness and training in both health and social care services. This is a positive start to what we know is a much longer journey.
The summary report indicates that the introduction of the code has shone a spotlight on and encouraged enquiry about areas that have not yet had sufficient attention from the regional strategic groups, such as diagnostic assessment in adult mental health services and learning disability services. To support regions to address this, we're currently working with the Royal College of Psychiatrists to develop an operational framework and guidance for clinicians.
The recommendations in the report are twofold. Firstly, they focus on developing an overarching strategic approach to improving autism services at a regional level. Secondly, they identify specific actions to improve compliance in relation to individual duties. This includes strengthening the role of autism strategic groups and the autism champion, as well as developing a greater understanding of the needs of the autistic community through better use of planning tools, such as the population needs assessment. The evaluation goes on to identify wider enablers and barriers that have supported or impeded implementation of the code. We can learn from these to better support services going forward, while also ensuring the findings underpin the continued delivery of our neurodivergence improvement programme.
The continued support provided from the national neurodivergence team, previously known as the national autism team, has also been invaluable in driving the implementation of the code. As well as appointing a member of staff directly responsible for supporting health boards and local authorities to understand the requirements set out in the code, they've also proactively developed a national training framework, e-learning modules and information and resources for parents, carers, children, young people and adults. They've also been pivotal in raising awareness, training and upskilling employers and the wider workforce in health, social care, education and community services.
There's reference in the report to constructive engagement with other mainstream policy areas, such as education, employment, mental health and housing, and how these are likely to improve the impacts upon people’s lives and support the whole-system approach. The report also highlights the very positive approach that has been established with the alignment of the neurodivergence improvement programme and the NEST/NYTH framework. This has been achieved by policy leads collaborating on and communicating to services a clear vision of how the NEST framework is inclusive of neurodivergent children and their families.
The neurodivergence improvement programme has been pivotal in making changes to the way services are provided, in line with the code. By releasing the money through the regional partnership boards, it has encouraged services to collaboratively move closer towards meeting the duties set out in the code. The funding has brought additional capacity across the system, increasing access to diagnostic services, enabling the development of information, resources and the provision of support to people and their families while they wait, and to reduce the urgency of a diagnosis. This evaluation has proved very informative, and has provided clear direction and specific actions for both the Welsh Government and regional partnership boards to implement. And I'm very pleased to say that we're already engaging with RPBs to support the implementation of the recommendations, and we will continue to drive forward the transformational change that is so very much needed for neurodivergent people and their families.

Julie Morgan AC: I would also like to take this opportunity to update you on the listening line.

Julie Morgan AC: As you are aware, through direct engagement with neurodivergent people, their parents and carers, the absence of prompt access to appropriate advice and support has been raised as an urgent gap that needed to be addressed. I asked officials to explore whether the development of a helpline support service in Wales for people with neurodivergent conditions and their parents and carers would help address gaps in provision, as part of a number of improvements to increase support for families. So, in April, we began a six-month pilot of a neurodivergence listening line as an extension to the CALLmental health helpline. This has only recently concluded, at the end of October, and a report on the pilot will be available in December.
Initial findings from the pilot indicate there is a need for a remote access service that is available outside of core working hours. Comparison with the same six-month period last year, April to October, showed that there had been an increase from 132 to 255 for autism-related calls and from 95 to 183 for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, an approximately 52 per cent increase for each condition. However, we have learned from the content of the calls that the service really needs to be more in line with a helpline than a listening line. What this means is that, rather than only offering a confidential place to talk, we need to offer a service that can also offer practical support, advice and make appropriate referrals. We're therefore learning from the pilot and looking at other solutions to develop a helpline, rather than a listening line.

Julie Morgan AC: Both of the reports I have referred to will be available before the end of the year.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, although autism is neither mental health nor a learning disability, people with autism fall between two stools, as there's nowhere else to go. I led an individual Member's debate here in 2015, which called on the Welsh Government to introduce an autism Act for Wales. Members voted in favour. In October 2016, I led a debate recognising a need for specific legislation for autism and calling on the Welsh Government to bring forward an autism (Wales) Bill during the fifth Assembly term. Its defeat on party lines caused huge distress for the autism community in Wales. My colleague, Paul Davies, subsequently brought forward an autism Bill to ensure that autism had a proper statutory identity in Wales and that services for people with autism meet their real needs. As I said at the time:
'There are serious concerns that the Welsh Government’s refresh strategy will not be robust enough to make the changes we all want to see, unless it is backed by legislation.'
And
'Placing specific duties on local authorities and health boards would lead to greater clarity on the care and support that people with autism can expect.'
Paul Davies's Bill was defeated. Instead, the Welsh Government committed to develop a statutory code of practice, reinforcing existing duties of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 and the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006 as an alternative to a separate autism Bill. In the code of practice that followed, the Welsh Government stated that they had made sure that there were
'monitoring requirements and robust powers enabling Welsh Ministers to intervene if services do not meet satisfactory standards.'
Minister, has this ever happened since and, if so, what changes resulted and how did Ministers ensure that autistic people and their carers were involved and listened to in a way that met their own communication, sensory and processing needs?
According to the code of practice, it is for, amongst others, autistic people, including those with other co-existing conditions, providers of social care and health support for autistic people and their families and/or carers, and commissioners and people with a strategic role in assessing and planning local services for autistic people and their families and/or carers. However, when I pursue constituent casework, which is daily these days, on behalf of people with autism and other lifelong neurodevelopmental conditions, the providers and commissioners running the show either fail to acknowledge the code of practice existing until reminded or claim compliance with it. Minister, why therefore do the large numbers of autistic people and their families or carers who contact me almost always tell me that they've been ignored, harmed and blamed?
Earlier this year, I attended a care and support assessment, at a constituent's request, at which the conduct of council officers drove the mother into autistic meltdown, which is not the same as a temper tantrum and not bad or naughty behaviour, but occurs when a person is completely overwhelmed. How do you respond to the letter then sent by the council's social services chief officer, accusing the mother of abuse and dictating how future contact would be managed?
How do you respond to allegations that I received that young autistic people in Wales are still being sent to mental institutions outside Wales, one of whom, for example, died in institutional care last November? How do you respond to the parents of autistic children, whose children have been sectioned as a result of placement breakdown and the failure of local authority provision, who told Hefin David and I last month that our ability to understand the extent of this problem and monitor it is restricted by the lack of available up-to-date data?
Last month, you may recall that I had a short debate here on parental blame and the pathological demand avoidance profile of autism, which described the personal experience of parents subjected to misaligned scrutiny and blame by their respective local authorities, in respect of their children's autistic presentations. How do you respond to the cases that I detailed then, including the Flintshire mum who stated:
'Flintshire's culture seems to be that of bullying, victimisation and cover-ups of serious safeguarding concerns and threats to remove children in order to gag the parents who complain'?
Similar allegations are made to me daily by families there. And how do you respond to the statement by the National Autistic Society's education and transition advice co-ordinator for Wales, in January's cross-party autism group meeting, that the service receives the highest call volume from Flintshire, followed by Cardiff; or to the Wrexham mum who stated:
'the very ALN unit staff supposed to be advocating for our year 11 son are doing the complete opposite'
and whose education tribunal was this month?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Mark, can you conclude now, please?

Mark Isherwood AC: Finally, you refer to the neurodivergence listening line and helpline, which can be positive for many people. But how are you providing for the needs of people who can't use the telephone or, in doing so, struggle with processing information conveyed through the telephone, regardless of the high intellect most of them have, and would need to communicate in other manners, once the service providers have taken the time to establish which communication methods work for them? Diolch.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Mark, for all of those points, and I'd like to pay tribute to all the work that you have done for and with people with neurodivergence. I know that it's an issue that you have consistently spoken about in this Chamber, and that you have consistently campaigned about. So, I'd like to start by acknowledging the huge amount of work that you do for that.
You referred to the autism Bill that came before this Chamber, which was defeated. One of the reasons that that Bill was not taken forward was that it was specifically concentrating on autism, and we want to reach out to all neurodivergent conditions. The national autism team has now become the neurodivergence team, and we are including ADHD, we are including Tourette's. We are making it a team that is working for all of the neurodivergence conditions. So, I think that it is very important that we make sure that we give the opportunity for all people who have those conditions, and their families, to see that the team is working for everybody. So, that is the way that we have moved forward. We have changed that team, and we are now reaching out to a much wider group.
I know that you have raised the issues of the cases that are brought to you. As you know, as a Government Minister, I can't intervene in these individual cases, but I do deeply regret any distress that has been caused to your constituents. You also mentioned the debate that we had the other day, and the issue of people feeling that they are being blamed for the condition that their children may have. Obviously, nobody should be blamed for whatever condition their child has. But, as I say, I can't comment on those individual cases. I am pleased that they have you to go to, to take the cases to you, and I hope that you will be able to get some satisfactory responses.
In terms of the listening line, that has been, as I say, a six-month pilot, and we have decided that something more is needed than a listening line. We do need some response where we can actually direct people, and rather than just signpost people somewhere, have experts on the line who would be able to help people at the moment that they need it. So, we are now looking into that. But I certainly take the point that not everybody will use a helplinebecause of the difficulty with communications and support, and that's something that I will certainly consider in the next stage of development. So, thank you very much for your contribution.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you to the Deputy Minister for today's statement. I welcome this statement by the Deputy Minister. Indeed, any positive statement in this area is to be welcomed.
For a long time, neurodivergence was one of those hidden health issues that didn't receive the necessary attention or support. The fact that our awareness and understanding of the condition have increased over the past few years represents a major step forward, and I hope that this progress will continue over the coming years to ensure that policies to support neurodivergent individuals are planned as effectively as possible.
As I have mentioned frequently in the Siambr, it is vital that the preventative agenda is at the heart of health policy to improve the resilience of our health services, so that we can cope with the challenges that will face us over the coming decades. And a key element of this is to expand our ability to identify, respond and adapt to a condition such as neurodivergence early on and at pace. Unfortunately, as highlighted in the recent report by the Children's Commissioner for Wales, waiting times for diagnosis for neurodivergent people are still far too long, and there is a clear lack of capacity in our health services across Wales to be able to tackle these waiting lists, and that is an ongoing issue. For example, the most recent data shows that for every two children or adults referred for a neurodivergence assessment, only one receives a diagnosis, so the capacity is only half the demand.
The children's commissioner's report therefore emphasises the need to create a 'no wrong door' society for neurodivergence,to tackle the lack of capacity. In operational terms, this means ensuring that public organisations can provide their services in a way that doesn't disadvantage neurodivergent people. It's good, therefore, to see the recent review of the 'Code of Practice on the Delivery of Autism Services', and while progress has been made in some areas, it is clear that there is a great deal of work to be done to achieve the ambition of a 'no wrong door' society. One of the most disappointing elements of the report is the lack of confidence in adult mental health services' ability to comply with the code, which is a reflection of the fact that neurodivergent services are insufficiently holistic and integrated.
It is clear that the quality of skills and training in the health and social care sectors, and, indeed, in the education sector, is a significant barrier in this context. So, what is the Government's strategy in response to this, and what is the Deputy Minister's understanding of the most obvious current gaps in terms of skills in the public sector, so that we can have those more integrated services and a better understanding of neurodivergent conditions?
It's also clear that we need an ongoing review of the code so that its impact permeates and takes root in every part of society. One effective way of achieving this would be to ensure that people with lived experience of neurodivergence feel that they have clear input into the process of refining the code. Reaching out and listening to those people living with neurodivergence is vital. Therefore, data from the listening line on this is to be welcomed. Could the Minister explain how this information will feed into the development of the Government's neurodivergence policies in future?
I also want to ask about an update on the Government's neurodivergence services improvement programme. In February, we heard that £12 million had been invested to implement the programme over the next three years. How is that funding being spent, specifically, and how will the review of the code of practice affect the way that resources are distributed? Finally, how is the refinancing work, announced on 17 October, going to affect this expenditure? To what extent will inflation during this financial year undermine the Government's ambition in terms of this programme? Thank you very much.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Mabon, for those comments, many of which I am in agreement with. I think one of the points you made towards the end of your comments was about how important it was that people with neurodivergent conditions are involved, listened to, and have the opportunity to speak. I'm heavily advised by the ministerial advisory group that we've set up, and this is chaired by three people with neurodivergent conditions, and they lead the group. The group is heavily representative of people who are involved in the sector, and this is really important, I think, that we do have those voices right here at the centre of Government, advising me what to do.
Also, when I took on this role and since, I've had a regular series of meetings with families, in particular, who are involved with bringing up their children who have neurodivergent conditions. Really, listening to them has led the way in terms of what we're actually doing and what we're planning to do. It was because of what they were saying that we have this listening line initiative, because they were saying that what they needed was somewhere to go for help and support, because one of the most difficult times is waiting for a diagnosis. I think, as you said, half of the children don't then actually get a diagnosis, because they're not deemed to need a diagnosis. But during that period of waiting is a period of huge strain on the families, and this came over so strongly that we must put in some support there at that stage. So, this is one of the things we were doing, the listening line, the work that we're doing across schools, the work that we're doing to give support in the community. These are things that we are very committed to doing.
In terms of the skills, the training and the awareness raising, I would say that those were some of the things that we have been making good progress on through the code. All the local authorities have received training in order to recognise autism, and we are progressing training in terms of communication and autism. So, those things, I think, are extremely important, and also, as I say, we've worked very hard on awareness raising. There has been progress, but the progress has produced more demand, because there is such a greater awareness now of what actually happens and much greater awareness, and many adults are identifying themselves in adulthood who were missed as children. So, really, there's a huge demand.
You referred to the waiting lists, and the waiting list for children is far too high, absolutely. I'm not at all happy with the fact that the waiting list is so high, but the money that you referred to, some significant amount of that money has gone into the regional partnership boards in order to provide means of helping with the waiting lists and also to put support into the communities and the families. One of the examples I would use is in Cardiff and the Vale, and they have set up a scheme of connectors, and the connectors work specifically with families where there is a child who they think has got autism, or ADHD, or Tourette's, and they work to connect them with the services that they need. So, there are a lot of different methods that we are using to help families in this situation, but, as I said at the beginning, we're on a journey and we're really at the beginning of the journey.

Hefin David AC: Few in this Chamber will have more respect for Mark Isherwood's work for neurodivergent people than me, and I look forward to continuing working with him in the future on the issues that he raised today. One thing I do need to say is that the vote on the autism Act was not a party political decision on my part, at least. I feel that it was the wrong Act at the wrong time, and as a member of the autistic community that he represents, I don't think that it would have aided us in the way that perhaps he thinks it might have. I think the more complexundertakings of the Deputy Minister, listening to people who are not party political but actually members of the community, is the right way forward.
Mabon ap Gwynfor has raised some real concerns about 'no wrong door', which is also what I wanted to raise. Moving to a helpline sounds like the right thing to do, but I still see the landscape disconnected between education and health and social services. That’s certainly been my experience. So, can the Deputy Minister outline how the children’s commissioner’s recommendations will inform phase 2 of the code's evaluation? What more can she do to connect those disparate services? And can she also update us on the work in future of the ministerial advisory group?

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Hefin, for that contribution, and also thank you for the work that I know you do in this field. I think there is a disconnect between education and health and social services, and one of the ways we’re tackling that is to enable people within the education service to become aware and to be trained in recognising neurodivergent conditions and to be able to respond to them. And of course, within the schools themselves, the people working in the education service are now taking part, in some areas, in recognising and diagnosing the children in the schools. I think the more we can do to draw those together, we certainly should do.
We will be having the second phase of evaluation. The first phase will be published in December, then the second phase will be towards the end of next year, and we’ll certainly look at those findings and decide how we go forward with the strategy. As you know, we’ve put £12 million into the improvement strategy, and of course, as somebody else mentioned, inflation and all these other issues obviously are impacting that, but we are doing our utmost with that money to improve things.
On the ministerial advisory group, as I said, I value that ministerial advisory group so much because of the leaders there, who are fantastic—I think you may know some of them—and I’m heavily reliant on what they say. In their meetings so far, I believe that they’ve been really gelling as a group, and now we’re asking them to come to us with what they think a good service looks like. So, that is their next task in the group. I’m waiting for them to start that task and to come to us with a model that we will then look at, because I think, as you say, the way to take this forward is to work with people who have the lived experience themselves or the lived experiences of bringing up children. I know that many families really struggle, and adults struggle as well, and I believe we are improving things, but it’s only the beginning at the moment.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you to the Deputy Minister for today’s update. One of the things that I haven’t seen in your statement or in the documentation is any reference to the Welsh language. The code of practice states:
'Throughout this Code, when referring to information, assessments and support, these should be offered in both English and Welsh.'
Clearly, there is recognition from a number of specialists of the importance of assessments of this kind happening in the young person’s first language, and that hasn’t been happening.
There’s already been some discussion on waiting times for diagnosis, but a Welsh-speaking child can be waiting for an even longer period of time than those who have English-medium assessments—from key stage 1, waiting until key stage 3 or even longer for a diagnosis, from six years old to 12. So, what progress has been made in terms of ensuring that the service provision and assessments are available through the medium of Welsh, and is that investment still ensuring progress in this area?

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you, Heledd, for raising that very important point. The Welsh language is a priority within the improvement programme and we are conducting specific pieces of work within the five-year action plan, 'More than just words'. We’re seeking to understand the ability of the workforce to deliver neurodivergence services and diagnostic assessments in Welsh, and we’re working with Health Education and Improvement Walesand Social Care Wales to support this work.The NHS delivery unit has scoped the use of the Welsh language and tools as part of their deep-dive work. We're also looking at research and explorative action around the process and requirements needed to translate diagnostic tools, and that's also being undertaken. So, we recognise the issue, we've got a series of actions that we're taking, but I do absolutely acknowledge that to have an assessment and diagnosis through the medium of Welsh does take longer, and it's not right that it does.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Finally, Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm grateful also to the Deputy Minister for a very full statement this afternoon, and I'm grateful also for the way in which she's set out this statement and explained how services are being delivered on a regional basis and more locally. For a borough like Blaenau Gwent, where we don't have a great population centre, this means that many services are delivered from outside of the county borough. When people have had their nineteenth birthday and when we are having the transition from education into adulthood, a number of services are delivered on a regional basis and from elsewhere. This makes transport all the more essential for people to access those services. One of the things I hear about from constituents on a regular basis is a lack of transport, which means that parents are put under additional pressures—sometimes unsustainable pressures—which means that people do not actually have the ability to access these services. What is it that the Welsh Government can do to ensure that the services are not only provided for people, but that people are able to access those services?

Julie Morgan AC: I thank Alun Davies for, again, a very important question. He's right that we are working in regions and a lot of the funding that we're putting in is going into regional partnership boards in order to ensure that the solutions are done on a regional basis. It does mean that there is a wider geographical spread for young people to travel. One of the concerns that has been brought to me is the fact that, before the pandemic, there was often specific transport put on that has not necessarily reappeared since the pandemic. This is one of the issues that I'm actually taking up, because to some centres, where there used to be regular buses provided by the local authority, that has not been renewed, and that's something that, as I say, I'm involved in at the moment. But in terms of this issue, it's also an issue related to the general transport issue, isn't it, in terms of having availability of buses, particularly in maybe rural areas as well. I think it's an important part of a transport policy that we do consider the needs of people who are neurodivergent and have to travel. So, thank you for raising that issue, which is something that I will certainly take consideration of as we move forward.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Deputy Minister.

6. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: Data on Coal Tip Locations

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 6 is the statement by the Minister for Climate Change on data on coal tip locations. I call on the Minister to make the statement—Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I am pleased to update the Senedd today on the publication of disused coal tip locations. We have made significant progress since the First Minister established the coal tip safety taskforce after the landslide in Tylorstown in February 2020. One of our key objectives was to address the gap in information about the number and location of disused coal tips across Wales. We commissioned the Coal Authority to map these tips, and I would like to thank the Coal Authority, local authorities and Natural Resources Wales for their help and support in preparing the data for publication. It has been a mammoth undertaking to identify, record and categorise all disused coal tips in Wales into a single central database, which did not exist before.
In October 2021, I published the number of tips by local authority. This data set has enabled the taskforce to prioritise inspections and maintenance works on the category C and D tips. Tip information has already been shared with local authorities and local resilience forums to assist development of emergency preparedness plans where required for the higher rated tips. However, as the publication of the locationsof tips involved personal data and individual properties, it was vital we had a high level of confidence in the boundary information before making it publicly available. We have had to tackle an immensely complicated coal tip ownership landscape and undertake a lengthy, painstaking quality assurance exercise of the data.
Today marks a major milestone, as I have published on the Welsh Government website both the updated number of tips across Wales, and, importantly, also the locations of all 350 category C and D tips in Wales. The category of a tip is based on a number of things. For this data release, we have focused on category C and D tips, as they are more likely to need frequent inspections, so we can identify and carry out any maintenance when needed. It does not mean they are unsafe, but they may be larger and are more likely to be closer to communities or major infrastructure. This work is very much a live project, and we will continue to further quality assure the location information of the remaining tip categories, and we can expect further adjustments as the work progresses.
We have now written to over 1,500 landowners and nearly 600 occupiers of properties across Wales, to inform them that they are likely to have all or part of a disused coal tip on their land. Before I go any further, I want to make it clear that today's publication does not mean there is an immediate issue with any specific disused coal tip. More than three years on from the Tylorstown landslide, there is a dedicated Welsh Government programme in place to regularly inspect and maintain these disused coal tips, and we know significantly more about these tips than we did before. All that is being asked of home owners and occupiers is to allow access to their land to representatives from the Coal Authority or local authority to undertake inspections or maintenance works, when these are needed.
However, I am aware that this may be the first time many people will be aware of the existence of a coal tip, or part of a coal tip, on their property, and individuals and communities will, quite rightly, likely have questions. We are providing a package of supporting information for disused coal tip owners and occupiers, the wider coalfield communities, the public, and local representatives including Members in this Senedd. We have a dedicated webpage on the Welsh Government website, and we will also be holding public drop-in sessions in communities impacted around Wales over the coming weeks. Online events are also available for those who cannot attend a drop-in session.
All taskforce partners are working collaboratively on an inspection and maintenance regime, which helps all of us take the most effective action to keep communities safe. All category C and D tips have been inspected. We have commissioned the Coal Authority to inspect all category C coal tips once a year, and category D coal tips twice per year. We have also commissioned the Coal Authority to begin inspecting category B tips.
The regular inspections help us to monitor any maintenance works that may be required, and we have made available £44.4 million to local authorities to carry out works on both public and privately owned tips. Part of this funding has of course helped support the remediation of the Tylorstown tip. When the First Minister visited the works earlier this summer, he was very impressed with the progress made. Since remediation work began, nearly 400,000 tonnes of debris has been moved from the tip, including nearly 60,000 tonnes from the river. The removed debris is being used to create a wildlife meadow. We are also undertaking a wide-ranging programme of technology trials on some of our category C and D coal tips to determine their suitability in contributing to the safe and effective management of disused coal tips. The outcomes of the trials will inform the long-term technology and monitoring strategy of the future management regime.
But, Deputy Llywydd, our work does not stop there. In our programme for government, we are also committed to introducing legislation during this Senedd term. Our priority is to ensure that people living and working near coal tips feel safe and secure both now and in the future. And our proposals for a new regime aim to achieve just that by setting in place a long-term, fit-for-purpose regime for disused tip safety. This will be led by a newly created public body solely focused on this work. The First Minister included the disused tips Bill in his summer 2023 legislative statement, and I look forward to the progression of the Bill when it is introduced to the Senedd next year. Diolch.

Joel James AS: Thank you, Minister, for your statement today. I'd like to take the opportunity to thank you for the meeting we had last week to discuss the release of this very important data set. The worrying scenes that we witnessed in Tylorstown in 2020 are a reminder to us of the legacy and impact of our industrial past, and I fully support the action taken by you and the Welsh Government in tackling this issue, and to start by mapping all the coal tip sites in Wales. It allows for more consistent data and it allows for all those concerned to access the same relevant information and to work towards the same principles, which of course is vital for delivering results, going forward. Like you in your statement today, I also want to take this opportunity to reassure residents, especially those just discovering that they might be living next to a coal tip, not to worry, and that this list does not mean there is an immediate issue with any of these tips being listed.
In a technical briefing this morning, I must admit I was surprised to hear that some owners are unaware that they have disused coal tips on their land, and this just demonstrates the complexity of the task ahead of us. In the briefing, we were also informed that about 6 per cent of all disused coal tips do not have a clearly defined owner or have no available ownership information. And with this in mind, Minister, I'm interested to know what action could be taken in terms of monitoring and maintaining these sites when this is the case. Will access to the site be given, as it where? And will necessary maintenance automatically be carried out? Or is there any legality that prevents you from doing this?
Also, Minister, is there any recourse for owners who may have been told that a disused coal tip is on their land to dispute that finding? As you can no doubt appreciate, there may well be legal or insurance issues for owners if they have wrongly been identified as the legal owners of a site, and this could cause considerable problems if they were to try and sell their land at a later stage. Given the complexity and the high number of shared owners of disused coal tips, I anticipate that this data may well, understandably, cause issues for some people.
In your statement today, you specifically mentioned the category C and D sites, and that these sites will now be reviewed once and twice a year respectively. I'm conscious that C and D sites doesn't necessarily mean that they posed the worst risk, I am interested to know how often the A and B sites will be monitored, and what is the potential for sites to change category? How likely will it be that a category B site could move to either a C or D category? I ask this, Minister, because I want to know the potential for other sites that have been assessed as low risk becoming problematic in the future.
As you have mentioned, £44.4 million of Welsh Government funding has been allocated for coal tip maintenance for three years, with the expectation that all this money will be spent on making many of the disused coal tips safe during this period. What financial expectations do you now have in terms of further finances being needed? Do you expect the £44.4 million to be enough to make all category C and D coal tips structurally safe, and therefore only small amounts of funding will be needed for ongoing review, or do you expect that major funding will still need to be going forward?
Finally, in your statement, you have made specific comments regarding the work being undertaken at the Tylorstown tip concerning the remediation of debris and the creation of wildlife meadows. I am grateful to Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council for allowing me to visit this work being undertaken, but I'm keen to know what steps have been taken to protect and even promote the specific biodiversity that is only found on coal tips in Wales. I'm conscious, as everyone here is, that public safety is paramount, but as you know, Minister, disused coal tips and colliery spoil sites have become rich in biodiversity, with characteristic flora and fauna unseen elsewhere that boasts many scarce, rare and unique species, such as the dingy skipper butterfly, the red-backed mining bee and, my personal favourites, the beast of Beddau and the Maerdy monster millipedes. Many of these are classed as conservation priorities and are at risk of disappearing if remediation works do not take them into account. So, with this in mind, how do you envisage this newly released data set being used to map out and protect that biodiversity? Thank you.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Joel. So, there is a series of questions there, many of which are answered on the website, but I'll just briefly run through them. So, I just want to put a few issues to bed, though. I understand you're asking it the other way up, but we've had conversations with both the Association of British Insurers, with UK Finance and the lenders, and with the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors, and we don't think there is any insurance or sale issue with being identified as having a coal tip as part of the curtilage of your building. So, we absolutely do want people to be sure that they are or aren't part of the regime, though, so if people do think that there's an issue with the mapping, there's a perfectly reasonable way of querying that and making sure that it's checked. But one of the reasons that we're happy to issue this data today is that we have quality assured this, because it was quite clear that the data was not as reliable as we'd have liked it to have been until this point in time. And it has taken a number of years to get to this point in time for quality assurance. But there is a system on there if you think that you've been wrongly identified, or indeed the other way around—if you think you should have been identified, there is a methodology for that on the website.
In terms of the credibility of the classification, we've had an inspection regime for some time now. We've paid the Coal Authority some £3 million in order to do this work for us. The C and D tips are the higher risk categories, and by 'higher risk' we mean there's a need for more inspection regimes to ensure the integrity of the tip; we don't mean that they're an immediate risk to the public. It's important to make that distinction. We will be moving on, as I said, to the A, B, and R category tips, but we've already done a preliminary inspection of what we know, and we're very happy that the characterisation is one that holds. So, A and B category tips are less higher risk, in the sense that they need much less inspection and maintenance in order to make sure that they remain safe and aren't likely to slide or do anything else. So, this is very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, a message of reassurance to people that the inspection regimes are there and that all they need to do is make sure that, if requested, they allow access for inspection on their land. Many people will only have a foot of the tail end of a coal tip at the end of their back garden, so this isn't something to worry about.
And then in terms of the overarching point, it won't be a surprise to anyone who lives in the rich south Valleys heritage areas that there are coal tips in their vicinity. I don't think that anyone buying a house in any of the areas that my family come from would be amazed to discover that there had been a coal mine nearby. Indeed, my father worked in one near where I live. So, this isn't a huge surprise to people, but it might be a surprise that they have a small amount of it in their back garden, or maybe they think they do have one, and actually it turns out that the map shows that they don't. But if you direct your constituents into the website, it's really clear how you go about querying that if you're not happy with the information. But, most people will have received a letter telling them their individual circumstances straight up.
And then the last piece is a very important piece on the biodiversity. We absolutely know that many of them have naturalised. Part of the maintenance and inspection regime is to make sure that we do preserve both the heritage aspects and the biodiversity aspects, and where debris does have to be moved, as you saw in the example in Tylorstown, it is used to great effect to make sure that we can create something good out of it.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you to the Minister.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you very much for the statement and also for the technical briefing that you've provided. It was very useful. Now, I agree utterly with the points that have been made that reassuring the public is vitally important with this. Of course, in the future, some of these tips could pose a threat, which is why it's so important that this work is under way, to make sure that all of that is analysed and that people are kept abreast of that. Now, the UK Government does have responsibility to put right the legacy of their neglect here in Wales, and, as I understand it, they've refused to pay towards this. We would reaffirm that communities must be safeguarded, that of course the Welsh Government must play its part in ensuring that this happens, but Westminster must pay towards this.
I have some specific questions, Minister. The £44.4 million that's available from the Welsh Government for local councils to carry out these works, both public and privately owned tips—that is very welcome. I'd ask what will happen after the end of that money comes to an end, then, in the years 2024-25. Now, coal tips, of course, are a legacy of the country's industrial history—that predates devolution. The UK Government, as I've said, needs to bear some of these costs, particularly, I think, the longer term costs of making those coal tips, which may pose a risk in the future, safe, because we know that increased rainfall, which is associated with climate change, has the potential to further destabilise these tips. Now, I don't want to worry people; I think that it's really important to reassure people that we're talking about things that could happen and we need to stop happening in the future, but studies have suggested a 5 per cent increase of rain could be seen during the winters in the southern parts of Wales by the 2050s. So, this isn't just a safety issue, it's a matter of historical, social and climate justice.
The UK Government reaped the benefits of the coal industry. It ripped wealth from our communities and then it deindustrialised them without a plan for the future, leaving our communities to suffer. So, the risks of climate change will only exacerbate this issue. I welcome the fact that the Welsh Government is publishing the location data of all category C and D disused coal tips in Wales, and I think that the interactive map is a really good idea. Now, you've already indicated, Minister, that this is an issue of great sensitivity; that lots of people will have concerns, particularly, as has already been mentioned, if people find out for the first time that they live near or that they operate a business in the shadow of a coal tip. Now, I've been really pleased to hear about the communications that have been going out to owners, to occupiers, along with the online and in-person community engagement that's there to reassure people. I understand that's been happening in my region, in areas including Merthyr, Caerphilly, Blaenau Gwent and Torfaen. And we have to understand, of course, why people are concerned, because it's already come up. You mentioned yourself, Minister, the Tylorstown landslip in 2020—that's why Plaid brought a debate in this Senedd, calling for the location of these tips to be released, and, again, I welcome the fact that that has happened. I also look forward towards the upcoming legislation. But in the meantime, what message, please, could you give to the people who live near these coal tips, people who will be concerned? What message of reassurance would you like to put across to those constituents of mine, and could you outline further, please, what support will be offered to them materially and psychologically? Because people from Merthyr and from Bedwas, actually, have contacted me, over the past few years at different times, to mention their concerns. It would be really helpful, I think, that, as well as this online communication,a clear message could be repeated from you, to reassure people about the situation.
Now, finally, because I'm aware of time, I've mentioned already the matter of reclamation costs. Now, I'd appreciate if you could give us a further update, Minister, about any conversations you've had with the Secretary of State for Wales about making these tips safe. I'd like to emphasise my disappointment that the Secretary of State for Wales decided not to add his name to your Government's recent letter, as had been agreed and recorded at the coal tip summit. Now, what message does that send? That's not just a rhetorical question, Minister; I'd really welcome your thoughts. So, just to close, I would welcome finding out what will happen after the £44.4 million for clean-up costs—once that has dried up—what plan is there for the future. Could you reassure us, please, that even though there are significant pressures on budgets for the Welsh Government, this will continue to be a priority for your Government, please? Thank you.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Delyth. Yes, absolutely. So, there's been an ongoing discussion. The Secretary of State for Wales has co-chaired the coal tip safety summit for some considerable time. I've attended I think all of them, but certainly the majority of them, and it's been a joint effort, quite rightly. Our view is pretty straightforward, really. We have two asks: we would like an additional £20 million for the inspection and maintenance regime, and I hope to speak to the Secretary of State for Wales in the very immediate future about his assistance in getting that money devolved to Wales from the Treasury, for the specific regime we're talking about here. But there's a much longer term issue about the remediation. So, to distinguish what we're talking about, the inspection and maintenance regime and then the remediation.
The remediation is enormous, and we couldn't pay for that out of our devolved budget, and, as you rightly said, Delyth, this is a heritage of the United Kingdom's fossil-fuel past. It's something that well predates devolution. It's something that the UK Government really ought to take responsibility for, or at least shared responsibility for, and the First Minister's continued to make that point, as have I, as has my colleague Rebecca Evans. We continue to make the point that it's nonsensical to say that an industry that had a far greater presence here in Wales that benefited the whole of the UK—and you could easily argue benefited parts of south-east England far more than it benefited people here in Wales—would then be paid for by the devolved Government. I mean, that just doesn't make any sense at all. So, that's a continuation of that conversation, but we do have an immediate ask for the inspection and maintenance phase of it. So, I just wanted to make that distinction.
In terms of the ongoing programme, you'll all be aware that we committed, in our programme for government, to introduce legislation during this Senedd term to deal with the legacy of centuries of mining and ensure coal tip safety. So, the disused tips Bill is scheduled for introduction to the Senedd next year. That seeks to enshrine in legislation the long-term, sustainable, fit-for-purpose regulatory regime, building on the one we've got now with the Coal Authority. And it will create, we hope, when the Senedd, we hope, approves it, a public body whose sole focus will be on this work. As part of the finance and regulatory impact assessment for that Bill, we will of course put the finance in place, and the Senedd will be able to scrutinise the veracity of that, and you'll be able to poke to make sure that we've got the right amount of money put in place for that. So, this is, if you like, the funding between now and when the Bill becomes law, and then once it's law, we'll be able to do the funding through the supervisory authority. So, I suppose that's a long-winded way of saying, 'Yes, absolutely, we will continue to fund it', but we'll continue to fund it in that statutory way so that it's protected for future generations. So, I'm very pleased to do that.
And then, in terms of the comms, it is really important, as you said, rightly, Delyth, to just clarify what we've done here. So, what we've done here is we've quality assured data that was already in the public domain but we knew was not quality assured. So, it was very misleading in parts, and what we've done is we've gone through that with a fine-toothed comb with the Coal Authority and with the local authorities impacted to make sure that we are much, much more confident that this is accurate. So, when we're now telling people that it's part of their curtilage, we're much, much surer that that's correct. That's not to say that there might not be somebody who finds that we've made a small error, but we're much happier that that's what it is.
And then just to emphasise that they're higher-risk tips because of their size and/or proximity to residential arrangements or towns or vital infrastructure, not because they're at higher risk of having something happen to them. I think it's just so important to get that across. So, they're higher risk as in, if something happened, it would have a big impact, but the 'if' is a remote 'if', because we've put the inspection and maintenance regimes in place to minimise the 'if'. And then, where something does happen, like with Tylorstown tip, we've clarified who's responsible for that, what the reaction should be and to make sure that everybody works together, and the forthcoming Bill will clarify that even more.
So, I don't think anyone needs to worry about this. This should, if anything, provide reassurance that we know where the tips are, we are inspecting them, there is a maintenance regime and we're trialling out a whole series of things that will keep people much safer than they had hitherto been.

Hefin David AC: Just to pick up from there, Minister, I think the most effective thing an elected Member could do is to interrogate the work of those people responsible for keeping tips safe. I've had meetings with Caerphilly County Borough Council, and I'm glad to say that—just cross-referencing your publication today with the list that Caerphilly council made publicly available—largely it is coterminous and recognises those tips. There is one tip that moves from category B to D1, where I will be asking the council about their inspection regime, but I have had a great deal of reassurance from Caerphilly council about their inspection regime, particularly with regard to Bedwas tips. I think the most helpful thing we can do is to keep an eye on that, not to go to specific tips and have photographs taken on the tips and published on social media. I think we need to be very careful about doing things like that. I think what we need to do is to make sure that the tips are being effectively monitored.
The remediation cost for full remediation of just one tip in my constituency would be in the tens of millions, between £30 million and £40 million. Last week, the First Minister indicated that Welsh Government had no objection to private providers being involved in coal tip remediation and restoration, provided the proper planning process is being followed. I can give the Minister an example of where that's happened in Six Bells in Abertillery—a private company remediated at very, very low public cost. Can the Minister confirm that this is the case, and that the technical expertise that private providers may be able to offer can assist the Welsh Government and local authorities in delivering on their objectives, particularly where that public funding is hard to get hold of in the short term?

Julie James AC: Yes, diolch, Hefin. I absolutely agree with everything you've said there. In terms of the classification, this is a technical classification done by the engineers who have expertise in this matter, and what it effectively does is it determines how many inspections a year a particular tip has. So a C has one inspection a year and a D has two inspections a year. But, obviously, if there's some issue that's reported, then an inspection would immediately follow. So, this is the regular inspection regime, and then the maintenance programme comes out of that inspection regime and is implemented and supervised, and that's the case across Wales. If a tip has changed category, it's because an engineer has taken a view on that tip, and you're quite right to ask the local authority about that; they'll be the experts in how that categorisation has occurred. The Coal Authority quality assures that so everybody's happy, and then once the Bill, we hope, passes through the Senedd the supervisory authority will be able to do that. And obviously, they'll have expertise in order to do it.
As far as I'm concerned, we welcome remediation from any source as long as it's a remediation that meets the approval of the inspection and maintenance regime and carries out the remediation in a way that's suitable. The conversation you and I had about the one you've got in mind sounds excellent to me, and I'm sure it does fit those criteria. What we want is to make sure that the aftermath of any remediation suits the locality, protects any biodiversity that's there and works for the benefit of the people, and the scheme that you outlined to me, Hefin, sounded as if it did all of those things. Obviously, we welcome input from any source that’s able to get the best outcome for our communities.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister, for today’s statement, but also the publication of the data. I also want to emphasise what you said—the ‘if’. But, obviously, we all—. When we saw the Tylorstown images, I’m sure a shiver went down all of our spines, and it was a reminder of the horrors of the past, but also the risk posed by the UK Government’s neglect. And I think we are right to condemn the UK Government, and I think it is irresponsible and we should all be angry that they’re playing politics over something that is so, so crucial that we get right.
The question I would like to ask is following on from Delyth Jewell’s point in terms of more extreme weather events; obviously, Tylorstown tip was an example of that. Even last night in the Valleys, you could see that people were panicking, concerned about not only flooding, but also the impact, potentially, on tips. So, when there are extreme weather events, which are becoming more frequent, can you give that commitment that it wouldn’t be twice a year that those tips that are most at risk or closest to populations would be inspected so that people can be reassured today that that information is there, but also it will be acted upon?

Julie James AC: Yes, absolutely, Heledd; it's a very good point. So, what I'm talking about is the regular routine inspection and maintenance regime, not connected to any incident, just happening regular as clockwork, making sure that everything on the tip is as it should be, and the maintenance system is working as it should be, and nothing has happened that would need the engineer to change the maintenance regime and so on. We would expect that, as a result of those inspections, maintenance regimes would be adjusted. Of course, that’s the point of the inspection.
If there’s been a weather event or some other event that means that particular tips had a huge amount of deluge, to use the language, of rain over a short period of time and so on, then, yes, absolutely. Operatives from the local authority, NRW and the Coal Authority will confer together and make sure, because what they’ll want to do then is to make sure that the maintenance functioning on that tip—so, the pumping and the ponds and the rivers and all the rest of it that are part of the maintenance—has worked, and has taken the floodwater away in a way that’s safe.
The Tylorstown slide started this off. So, that’s what led us to where we are now. So, a very good thing, it seems to me, has come out of something that was very frightening at the time, and made a lot of people realise that we didn’t have some of the systems in place that we really should have.
Now, I absolutely think that this is a Westminster function. The idea that the devolved Government of Wales should pick up the legacy of hundreds and hundreds, in some cases thousands, of years of mining in Wales is just ridiculous. But we’ve tried to be very reasonable in what we’re asking. So, a £20 million contribution to the current inspection and maintenance regime would really help. It would really help us make sure that we’ve got everything in place now. And then a proper programme of remediation coming out of the supervisory authority—assuming the Senedd gives its permission for us to do that—which will be able to put those plans in place, and, as Hefin said, pull in private sector partners and all sorts of other partners, but which will absolutely need public sector funding, seed funding and leverage, is definitely the responsibility of the Westminster Government. Because, as I said earlier, it’s pretty clear where the benefit of all the mining went, and it didn’t go to most of us whose fathers were down the pits. So, it went into the mineral exchanges of the world, and some of the stately homes that we see around Wales. So, I really do think there’s both a moral and a financial duty incumbent on the Westminster Government. The First Minister has been very clear about that too.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement. As you know, this is a really important issue for communities such as those I represent in Cynon Valley, communities that grew and developed through the coal industry, bringing a heritage of which they're rightly proud, but also leaving a legacy with which we are still dealing. Of course, one strand of that legacy is the coal tips, and your statement marks a really important step forward in how we address this legacy.
So, my questions today: Minister, an important point is that much of this information isn't new. As you said, tips are already being regularly inspected. I know that's the position taken by my local authority of RCTand your statement today about how the information is drawn together and approached within a cohesive, national framework.So, how is Welsh Government working to reassure communities on this point, and can you commit to holding a drop-in session in RCT as part of this?
And my second question: RCT has the highest gross number of C and D tips in Wales, so it would arguably be unfair for the burden to fall solely on the council's budget. Now you mentioned the £44.4 million that Welsh Government has provided to local authorities to carry out safety works, and I'm aware that this funding comes to an end next year, and whilst I, like other speakers, appreciate the pressure on budgets and the fact that the UK Government has so far been silent on its own financial obligations, I would like to ask: what work is being done to scope out the breakdown of funding for future years?

Julie James AC: Yes, thank you very much, Vikki. So, RCT have been very pivotal in this. It won't be any surprise to you at all. They have very high legacy issues to do with tips and the council has been very proactive and a great deal of the expertise that we've relied on has come from council officers. So, I'm very grateful indeed to the council for the co-operation we've had, and indeed, actually, every council in Wales, to the extent that they're involved in this, has been helpful. But RCT has very much been at the centre of that and I'm particularly grateful to the leader of RCT, who's been very proactive in bringing some of this forward.
So, I think there are some important things to know here. So, this data isn't new, but it's much more—. It's been collated, it's easier to access and it's been quality assured. So, previously, you might have known that there is a tip nearby, but you would not have known the exact boundary, for example. There was a categorisation system in place, but it wasn't consistent across Wales. There were inspections in place, but they weren't consistent and regulated in that way.
So, it's not that we weren't doing anything. We absolutely were. Lots and lots of people were working very hard before the Tylorstown slip to do quite a lot of things. What that's done is make us bring it together and act in a much more concerted way across Wales to make sure that we have a proper regime in place and it's led us to bring forward the Bill that I know you're familiar with.
So, we had a whole series of things that were non-standardised before. So, I suppose that's how I'd characterise it. So, if you're talking back to your constituents, what we've done is standardise the data. So, if they live near a tip in RCT the data they'll get will be very similar to that if they live near a tip in Wrexham, for example. So, that's very important, so people can understand what it is they're looking at.
In the past, privately owned tips would be far less likely to have been assigned a category than publicly owned tips, and we have a very large and diverse ownership structure across Wales, with some tips in public ownership, some in wholly commercial ownership, some in private ownership and so on. So, they've all been categorised, so that's a very important point as well. We've got a very large number of these tips in Wales, as you rightly said.
We are holding drop-in sessions; the vast majority of them are in the Valleys, Vikki. If you find that you have a substantial number of constituents who would have liked to have gone to an in-person event and couldn't get to one of the events in the Valleys, do let me know and I'm sure we can arrange one on purpose for a community that wants to do it together. And that goes for all Members of the Senedd, if they have that in their community.
There are online events, there are drop-in events; I'm actually attending one in the early part of this. We want this information to get out to as many people as possible, and we want as many people as possible to be asking questions, so that they feel safe and secure and that this isn't something to worry about.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, there's a brilliant archive piece of Richard Burton doing the rounds at the moment, in which he describes his love for the people of the south Wales Valleys as bordering on idolatry. And I think many of us in this Chamber will share that view of the people that we represent.
When I look at the maps—and it has been worth taking time to get into the granularity of where these tips actually are, particularly the category C and D—the roll-call of those tips within my area is a roll-call of our, what are termed, former coalfield areas, but are still where people lived with the danger and the dust and the pollution and the life-limiting impacts of coal. Wyndham, Pricetown, Ogmore Vale, Blaengarw, Cwm Garw, Cwmfelin, Maesteg, Garth, Nantyffyllon: these are the places where the C and D tips are. But that is why they deserve the respect, now, of knowing that they have a Welsh Government that is putting the effort into properly monitoring and managing particularly the C and D tips, and there is much to be reassured of within the statement today. But I'd echo the call of Vikki and others. I would welcome some community engagement within these communities because they definitely need that, they need to understand what is going on here. This is a way to manage and make safe these tips for them and for future generations.
But could I also echo those calls as well to the UK Government, to the Secretary of State of Wales to say, 'Play fair by us'? The money that was extracted from all of these communities—those places and communities that I listed—was money that did not stay in there. It went through Cardiff docks and it went off to London and other places around the world.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Huw, have you got a question to ask?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can she assure me that she is going to make those representations to the UK Government, in pure fairness, to say, both for the current scheme and for long-term maintenance, that they need to step up to the mark as well, and return some of that investment to the south Wales communities?

Julie James AC: Diolch, Huw. I am very happy indeed to say that we continue to make those representations. A large number of Ministers in the Government make those representations to our opposite numbers very frequently, and the First Minister himself has made representations to that effect.
Just to finish off, Dirprwy Lywydd, I just want to reiterate the important parts of what we are announcing today, if you don't mind. We have been working with local authorities and other partner organisations to ensure that we have planned communications engagement right across Wales. We are very anxious that people are ableto attend a drop-in session in person, or an online event. There are five drop-in sessions planned, and there are four online events planned. But if your constituents cannot get to those, then we are very happy to look again at whether we can hold another.
Technical briefing sessions have been held for all of you. If you could not get to that, or you’d like to re-run that, we are very happy to do that for you as well. They were done for Members of the Senedd, Members of Parliament and for all council leaders this morning.
The webpage content has frequently asked questions and a contacts page. We are asking people to send constituents to the website, much as you did during COVID, to get the information at source. Then, if you have a constituent who wants further information, then, obviously, write in in the normal way to us.
We want to avoid causing undue worry to partial owners of tips, in particular, where their property is on the site of a re-engineered tip, or where the toe of the tip may extend onto their land. This will be the first time that some owners are made aware of that, and the handling of that is crucial. This is about reassurance and engagement, and making sure that all people need to do is, if there’s a need to access their land for an inspection regime, that they are able to do so in good order and knowing that that will keep them safer. Diolch.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Minister.

7. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Services: Children’s Rights

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 7 today is a statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Services on children's rights. I call on the Deputy Minister, Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, everyone in this Senedd shares the responsibility to ensure that the rights of all children are understood, are recognised and are respected throughout Wales.

Julie Morgan AC: On 20 November, we will be celebrating World Children's Day. This year marks the thirty-first anniversary of the adoption of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. It is also 12 years since we passed the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 in Wales. Successive Welsh Governments have made significant progress in turning the rights enshrined in the convention into action on the ground.
Wales was proud to be the first UK nation to establish a children's commissioner. We have introduced flagship legislation making the promotion of knowledge and understanding of children's rights mandatory in our schools, placing rights education as a fundamental component of learning in Wales. I am very proud that we removed the defence of reasonable punishment in Wales. Giving children the same protection from assault as adults has been something I have been involved in, and fighting for, through all of my political life. These legislative changes have embedded our commitment to children's rights. They reflect the values that we have held since the beginning of devolution, to respect everybody’s citizenship, dignity and their universal human rights, including those of our youngest and most vulnerable.
Beyond this, we have put extensive arrangements in place to deliver practically on our commitment to children's rights across Government and civil society. Our children's rights scheme provides the strategic framework to ensure that children's rights are at the core of decision making, policy and practice for Welsh Government Ministers and officials. Listening to, hearing and acting on the views of children and young people is at the heart of our approach.Last year, I was honoured, with other Ministers, to attend the first ever summit for care-experienced young people in Wales. The summit brought together care-experienced children and young people and Welsh Ministers, so that we could learn directly from their experiences. We worked together to develop a joint declaration, committing to the radical reform of care services for children and young people, and putting their voice at the heart of the transformation of children's services.
Working with Children in Wales, we have built long-term and diverse participation models. This includes the Young Wales project, which provides meaningful and inclusive opportunities for children and young people to exercise their right to be heard in decisions that affect them. Next weekend, with other Ministers, I will be joining the Young Wales members at their annual festival, celebrating World Children's Day with them and discussing the issues that concern them most. Children are experts on their own experience, and we want all children to feel empowered and have opportunities to engage with, influence and scrutinise decisions that affect them.For children to claim their rights, they must first know about them.
The Welsh Government has been taking a cross-sector approach to raising awareness of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child with children, families and the people who work with them.We published the first 'Raising Awareness of Children's Rights' plan in November 2021 to set out how we would do this.I have also recently published the 'Rights of children and young persons: compliance report (October 2020 to March 2023)'. The report reflects on how the Government is meeting its duties to have due regard to the convention.Our children and young people's plan draws together the policies and programmes across Welsh Government that support children and young people, and an update to the plan is in development.Together, these documents set out the extent of the work we are undertaking with and on behalf of children and young people. But although I am very proud of the work we are doing, I also acknowledge that there is much more we can do.
In June, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child published their 2023 concluding observations. This followed the state party review of the United Kingdom by the UN committee in Geneva. Welsh Government played a significant role in the review process, alongside colleagues in children's civil society organisations in Wales. I would like to thank them for their contribution, and I would particularly like to thank the six Young Wales UN researchers who compiled a comprehensive report and travelled to Geneva to give evidence to the committee. And I was very pleased to meet those six young researchers.
I've welcomed the UN report and recommendations as important advice on the way in which we enact our policies in Wales.I was very pleased that the committee recognised the progress we have made in Wales, including extending voting rights to 16 and 17-year-olds and in reviewing and progressing every child's right to play. The report contains 200 recommendations, which we are carefully considering in consultation with stakeholders, including children and young people.I intend to publish the Welsh Government's response to the concluding observations report by summer recess next year. I will also publish updates on progress every two years throughout the next eight-year reporting period.
Last month, we received the children's commissioner's annual report. The recommendations cover a wide range of issues across Government, and I have been working with the First Minister to prepare our response to that report.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I have welcomed the opportunity today to highlight some of the work taking place across Welsh Government. I am proud of the collective progress we have made in upholding and embedding children's rights in Wales. However, I have to say that the continued impact of the pandemic, the cost-of-living crisis and the effects of high inflation on our public services and budgets means that now, more than ever, we must do everything within our powers to improve the experiences and opportunities for all children and young people in Wales. Diolch.

Gareth Davies AS: Could I firstly thank the Deputy Minister for bringing forward today's timely and important statement on children's rights? As you outlined at the start of your statement, Deputy Minister, it is the responsibility of the whole of this Senedd to ensure that the rights of all children in Wales are understood, recognised and respected.
As we know, Deputy Minister, this year marks the thirty-first anniversary of the adoption of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. Of course, this statement is also a timely one, as you mentioned, with World Children's Day taking place on 20 November. A key concern of mine, Deputy Minister, is that the Welsh Government has yet to respond to the findings of the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child on the UK, so what plans does the Welsh Government have to respond to these and act on the recommendations?
In your statement, Deputy Minister, you mention the defence of reasonable punishment in Wales, which was, of course, a contentious issue when it went through the Senedd before I was a Member here. Nevertheless, Deputy Minister, I'm just wondering what assessment you have made of this and what problems do you think have arisen following this.
In addition to this, Minister, you state that
'Listening to, hearing and acting on the views of children and young people is at the heart of our approach',
which I fully support. However, Deputy Minister, a key reassurance that I would like is on the role of parents. As we know, the role of parents is crucially important, and on this side of the benches, we fully support parental responsibility. What discussions are you having with parents to ensure that they can still be at the forefront of discussions regarding children's rights where practical?
Finally, Deputy Minister, I'd like to touch on the children's commissioner's annual report for 2022-23, which you closed your statement with. As I have previously raised with the Minister for Social Justice, a key concern of mine is improving children's access to mental health services and to help children struggling. I know you are working with the First Minister to prepare a response to this report, but I was wondering whether today you could give a bit of insight to the Welsh Government's initial thoughts.
To conclude, Deputy Presiding Officer, I thank the Deputy Minister for bringing forward today's statement and reiterate the support from this side of the benches on ensuring that the rights of children in Wales are understood, recognised and respected. Thank you.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Gareth, for that contribution. You are absolutely right that the whole of the Seneddis responsible for children's rights, and I think it's really important that we all, individually, take responsibility for that, so I'm very pleased that you mentioned that.
I did say in my remarks that we would be responding next year to the 200 recommendations of the UN concluding remarks. I did refer briefly to the fact that I was very pleased that, in their introductory remarks, they did refer to the fact that we had got rid of the defence of reasonable punishment very positively, and the fact that we brought 16 and 17-year-olds into the voting system. So, those were two very positive things that they said, but we will be responding to those 200 recommendations next year.
In terms of physical punishment, that is something where we prepared for the legislation very carefully and we've worked very carefully ever since in order to make absolutely sure that everybody in Wales is aware of the legislation. So, we've had extensive advertising, extensive stuff on the television, offered opportunities for people who are more difficult to contact to be made aware of what is happening. My assessment is that it has, as I really anticipated, become law and, during this first year, things have progressed very smoothly. The number of people who have been referred for out-of-court help by the police have all accepted the offers of help, and I've met some of the staff who work with those people and who have said how successful it has been, the way that the families have responded to the help that has been offered. So, I think it has gone very smoothly. It's very early, we're still offering help, we're offering as much help as we possibly can to parents, because it is a very difficult job, parenting, and we want to do all we can to help parents. So, it's going smoothly.
On listening to children, yes, we are listening to children, and as you say, where appropriate, we’re listening to parents too. You probably heard me mention in the last debate how I’m meeting with parents of children who have particular needs. I do think that we do need to listen to parents, and that is our policy. So, thank you for those comments.

Sioned Williams AS: Thank you for the statement, Deputy Minister. Wales takes pride in the fact that we led the way in terms of considering the rights of children when formulating policies. Adopting the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child in 2004 and then enshrining it in the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 were progressive steps that gave a clear indication that our nation is striving to safeguard our youngest and most defenceless citizens, not just from harm but also from being ignored, from being disregarded, and from being prevented from developing to their full potential—safeguarding these young individuals, yes, but also protecting the future foundations of our nation.
At this bleak time of economic austerity and significant economic pressures on families, it is important to note that United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child notes in the context of child poverty that all children have the right to a standard of living that is sufficiently high to meet their physical and social needs and to support their development, and the Government must help families that cannot afford to provide this.
Bearing in mind this long period of being dedicated to children’s rights and this clause in the convention, it’s difficult to understand, truth be told, and it’s extremely disappointing to see, that the draft child poverty strategy hasn’t been formulated and structured in accordance with those rights, that the children’s commissioner, the Equality and Human Rights Commission and the Observatory on Human Rights of Children have all noted the need to demonstrate how the draft strategy will incorporate the convention’s principles, and that the child rights impacts assessment, which is meant to assess how and if the Government is complying with its duties, as well as the integrated impact assessment, haven't succeeded in demonstrating how the strategy will positively or negatively affect children’s rights.
It’s a serious situation. It’s given due attention in the Equality and Social Justice Committee’s report on the draft child poverty strategy, which was published, of course, last week. Children have the right to live free from poverty, and the Welsh Government has a clear duty under Welsh legislation and the convention to safeguard and extend this right to the children of Wales. With 28 per cent of children currently living in poverty, it’s an urgent issue. We’ve reached crisis point.
I was pleased to see a child poverty strategy in place at last, as it is something that we’ve consistently called for in the past, but we do agree with the children’s commissioner that there is a need for greater clarity and ambition, along with targets to ensure focus and accountability. The strength of her evidence to the committee as well as that of the other children’s rights experts was striking and unambiguous, therefore at a time of crisis, to comply with the duties of Ministers in terms of children’s rights, what we need is a child poverty strategy that is clearer and more ambitious.
So, can you, Deputy Minister, explain why you allowed a draft child poverty strategy that failed to guarantee children’s rights under the convention and legislation to be published in the first place? What discussions have you had with the Minister for Social Justice to ensure that these calls to remedy the situation are fed now into the finalised child poverty strategy? And do you commit to improve officials’ and Ministers’ understanding of the Government’s duties to safeguard children’s rights, and how will you do this?
Do you also commit to improve the way in which integrated impact assessments and children’s rights impact assessments are used in future to draw up strategies and policies like the child poverty strategy? What focus, then, has there been on children’s rights in drafting the budget, bearing in mind that it appears from consideration of the draft child poverty strategy that the Government’s current method of measuring the impact on children’s rights is ineffective?
And to conclude, on the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child report that you referred to in your statement, and the fact that there won’t be a full response published until summer of next year, what issues, in your view, need to be prioritised in terms of what is noted in the concluding observations of the committee? Thank you.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Sioned, for those comments. I'm pleased that you recognise the way that Wales has led the way in terms of children's rights. It's something that we are deeply committed to and will continue to do.
In terms of the child poverty strategy, Ministers are taking a children's rights approach to deliver the programme for government commitment. Tackling poverty and inequality are the policy drivers within the Government, and that has been right at the centre of the development of the child poverty strategy. I'd like to draw attention to the fact that, as part of the pre-consultation activity, working with partners, we did engage with over 3,300 children, young people and their families, as well as the organisations that work with them. So, we certainly heard children's voices. The draft strategy sets out what we heard, what we're doing about it and where we will focus our efforts to create a more equal Wales.
I'm sure you know that the objectives of the draft strategy seek to tackle child poverty in five key ways: reducing costs and maximising incomes, creating pathways out of poverty, supporting child and family well-being, ensuring children and young people and their families are treated with dignity and respect, and ensuring that there is effective cross-Government working at a national level, making sure there's strong collaboration at a regional and local level. The consultation closed on 11 September and the Minister for Social Justice, whose responsibility this is in terms of taking it forward, is currently looking at the responses. As part of that work, we will consider the findings of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, because you referred to some of those findings and the evidence that was given. So those will be certainly considered.
A delivery or action plan is not really an appropriate vehicle for planning the long-term change that we want to achieve, because there are Welsh Government action plans that sit within the realms of the child poverty strategy that will measure progress under the relevant programme for government activity. So, I think the draft strategy does acknowledge the reality of today's challenges, but does provide a framework through which we can deliver policies and programmes that support the outcomes that we all want for our children and young people. But I do think it's important to remember that many of the levers of alleviating child poverty don't lie with us here. A lot of that is beyond our control, but I agree that it's absolutely essential that we do all we possibly can. I will be giving an absolutely full response to the United Nations proposals next year.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Jayne Bryant, as Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Today I'm speaking in my capacity as Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your statement today.
As a committee, we put children's rights at the heart of our work, and therefore we've been taking a keen interest in the UK concluding observations of the UN committee, particularly, of course, those that relate to Wales. It is pleasing to see where some progress has been made in Wales, as set out in the report, such as ending physical punishment of children—which I know you and others have led, Deputy Minister—and lowering the voting age in Welsh elections to 16.
I do also note with concern where the report concludes that the Welsh Government should do more to protect children's rights. Some of the UN committee's recommendations are directly relevant to the work that we as a committee have undertaken to date, such as the worrying prevalence of gender-based violence, waiting times for mental health services, a large number of children in care and the sometimes unacceptable standards of support and accommodation that children in care receive. Other recommendations are directly relevant to ongoing or forthcoming committee work. For example, the UN committee's report concludes that children with disabilities do not have appropriate access or services, education is not always inclusive enough, and children are too often criminalised, kept in custody and put in solitary confinement.
So, Deputy Minister, will the Welsh Government develop an action plan, underpinned by children's rights and with the direct involvement of children, as the UN committee calls for? And more specifically, Deputy Minister, the UN committee's report calls for an opt-out model of advocacy for children in care and for children in care to have the right to specialised mental health support services. We called for these exact changes in our report on services for care-experienced children and young people, and they are based on substantive evidence.
I know you've said that you'll be responding next year in detail, but in the meantime, in light of this report, will the Welsh Government look further at this and the obligation to give due regard to children's rights on these specific points? Diolch.

Julie Morgan AC: I'd like to thank Jayne Bryant very much for her comments, and also for all of the work that she does on the committee. It's been a great pleasure to work with her, because the committee has been challenging to the Government in a way that I welcome. Also, I know that she's been working very closely with individual children and with groups of children to find out what they really feel and think about things. I'm pleased that she was able to highlight the positive things that have happened here in the Senedd.
Jayne Bryant lists the areas that she has concern about and that have been highlighted as well in the report. Just to pick out one or two, the large number of children in care is something I certainly share with her and with the committee, and the Welsh Government has been doing its utmost to try to bring down the number of children in care. Of course, we've managed to stabilise it, but I don't know how it's going this year in terms of the numbers and what they'll be like at the end of this year. But one of our major commitments is to try and bring down the number of children in care, to try to keep children at home where it is safe to do so, and also to try, if they have to come into care, to place them locally so that they can continue to have contact with their family and friends.
Certainly, any action plan that we have will involve the direct involvement of children. I think I've given examples of the way that we are working with children. I was at a north Wales summit recently, talking to children. I met young people from NYASlast week. I'm constantly meeting young people, so I can assure you that there will be the involvement of children. And I think I've said before that the opt-out model of advocacy is something that we are looking at. Thank you very much.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And lastly, Jane Dodds.

Jane Dodds AS: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. I do welcome your statement—thank you very much—and your continual commitment to moving this agenda on. In fact, the last thing you said is encouraging to me, because I did want to focus on statutory advocacy. Let me read you a quote from one young person, who said,
'It can feel like you have to "fight" for an advocate at the moment. It feels because the process was really difficult and not straightforward that having an advocate was something I weren’t meant to have.'
That is the voice of a young person in care, and as you know, many of us in the Siambr are particularly passionate about ensuring that there is statutory advocacy for those looked-after children in care.
It was really disappointing to hear your response to the young people committee's 'Radical reform' report, when we learnt that the active offer in practice really is just a social worker hastily handing a child a leaflet during a very stressful transition. I know from my own experience what that is like. So, I really would urge you, to pick up on your last sentence, to really move this forward as quickly as possible. Would you therefore commit to ensuring that we have advocacy within a statutory framework and that there is a review of statutory advocacy in the near future? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Jane. Certainly, nobody should be fighting for advocacy. If advocacy is a bit of paper handed over, that is of no use, and so I absolutely am with her completely that that is not advocacy. We want to make sure that there is meaningful advocacy. As you know, we do fund independent bodies to provide advocacy, and it's an area that we are actively engaging in.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Deputy Minister.

8. Statement by the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd: Bovine TB Eradication

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 8 is next—a statement by the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales on bovine TB eradication. And I call on the Minister, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm pleased to deliver my annual oral statement on the TB eradication programme, following the introduction of our new delivery plan in March. The delivery plan sets out our approach to TB eradication over the next five years, building on the toolbox of measures already in place, to achieve a TB-free Wales by 2041. The delivery plan is centred on fostering and driving forward partnership working. Bovine TB will not and cannot be eradicated by Government acting alone.
I am acutely aware of the impact of bovine TB on the health and well-being of our farmers and their families. The mental health and well-being of those involved in the agricultural industry is of great concern to me. The Welsh Government continues to work closely with industry-led and third sector organisations who specialise in providing support to farmers in crisis, and who are able to assist during difficult times, including Farm Community Network, Tir Dewiand the DPJ Foundation, as well as the FCN-run FarmWell information hub. These organisations provide an excellent service to support keepers who contact them. I strongly encourage anyone suffering with stress or other mental health issues to speak to an expert in this field on any issues of concern.
Officials are working with partner groups to ensure written communications, initially focusing on letters to farmers from the Animal and Plant Health Agency, are clear and delivered in a more empathetic way. Officials have also begun a wide-ranging review of Cymorth TB, driven from the ground up, identifying an improved model for delivering support that can make a difference. Just as no two farms are the same, no two TB breakdowns are either. Therefore, farmers working closely with their own vet is crucial to both protect herds and keep TB out, as well as tackling the disease if it does occur.
The Pembrokeshire TB project has now been successfully established and work is under way. This is an excellent example of a collaborative, industry-led initiative, exploring new ways for vets and farmers to make informed decisions on disease prevention and control at a herd level. The project team is actively engaging with 15 farms selected by the six local veterinary practices involved. Novel approaches are being piloted, over and above the statutory measures currently available. These focus on farmers and their vets working together to develop tailored, herd-level measures, biosecurity on the one hand, and ways to identify and manage the removal of high-risk animals from herds.
Recruitment to the eradication programme board and our new technical advisory group is well under way. These two bodies are at the heart of our delivery plan and will, I believe, be central to driving forward the eradication programme. We have extended the application window to ensure that as many suitable candidates as possible have an opportunity to apply, and the new closing date is 4 December. The programme board, to ensure strong grounding and representation from industry, will include a number of ex-officio members drawn from the farming unions and other relevant bodies.
The TAG, under the chairmanship of Professor Glyn Hewinson, will, amongst a number of urgent tasks, make a priority of considering how we draw on expertise to replace the three TB regional eradication boards. Such engagement is essential to success, and I would encourage interested and suitably qualified people to submit an application.
I've heard and listened to concerns about on-farm slaughter policy, specifically regarding heavily pregnant cows and heifers, which can be incredibly distressing to witness. Whilst the slaughter of TB reactors on farm is sometimes unavoidable, I've asked officials to look again at how this situation is managed, and the TAG, once established, will consider the issue as a matter of urgency.
Whilst the picture of bovine TB in Wales is ever changing, I would like to emphasise that the important, long-term trends do show fewer affected herds and new herd incidents across Wales as a whole. New incidents have decreased by over 18 per cent in the 12 months to June this year, when compared to the same period five years ago, and the number of animals slaughtered for TB control has also decreased by almost 5 per cent.
I am committed to reimbursing farmers a reasonable sum for cattle slaughtered because of TB. However, we are continually overspending against our TB compensation budget, which is unsustainable to the taxpayer, particularly in the current economic climate. The TB payments question is complex, and we want to explore options through further engagement with industry.
We know levels of TB vary in different parts of Wales and the delivery plan committed to look at measures that need to be introduced to deal with this. From 1 February 2024, the Tuberculosis (Wales) Order 2010 will be amended to strengthen our approach to eradication. This will enable changes that include the reintroduction of pre-movement testing for cattle movements within and from the low TB area, to extend the requirement for post-movement testing in the intermediate TB areas, and permit the display of TB-free herd information on ibTB, supporting farmers in purchasing decisions.
We are seeing promising trends in the high TB area west, where the number of new incidents has decreased by over 25 per cent when compared to the same period five years ago. Proactive targeting of hotspot areas and partnership working are making a difference.
There are different disease trends in other parts of Wales, for example the changing TB picture on Anglesey, where epidemiology shows the possible development of a hotspot. We have again moved proactively with different measures to tackle the disease, including the reintroduction of pre-movement testing.
'Badger found dead' reports for Anglesey show the majority were found on Holy Island and all reported carcasses tested negative to TB. As a result, badger activity and biosecurity surveys were carried out on cattle holdings on Holy Island earlier this year. The first of four annual badger vaccination rounds was completed in October.
Finally, we also need to futureproof the delivery of TB testing in Wales. There are multiple factors that threaten the sustainability of veterinary services. The use of lay TB testers has been authorised since October 2022, and we already have 48 lay TB testers operating in Wales within the first 12 months. This has bolstered resilience and I am encouraged to learn of ideas to recognise career development pathways for this role.
Once more, I call upon the farming industry and the veterinary profession to unite with Government and delivery partners to make further strides towards our shared goal of a TB-free Wales by 2041. It is an ambitious target, but an achievable one if we have the support, buy-in and co-operation of everyone involved. Diolch.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Samuel Kurtz AS: I'd like to thank the Minister for her statement this afternoon on the incredibly important topic of bovine TB, and I'd like to thank her too for advanced sight of the statement.
As we know, the eradication of bovine TB in Wales is of the utmost importance, affecting not only our agricultural industry, but the well-being and livelihoods of our farmers, our Welsh food and farming industry and our economy. I appreciate your statement today, Minister, and your broad support for the eradication of this disease, but it still feels that the Welsh Government are forever going around the houses rather than getting to grips with this horrific disease.
I'll focus on a few points, if I may. Firstly, I've previously campaigned hard on the mental anguish and stress that some farmers go through with bovine TV, specifically with the slaughter of in-calf cows and heifers, and I'm pleased to hear you mention that in your statement this afternoon. Not allowing these animals to calve with dignity before being culled places a huge mental strain on our farmers. I've called repeatedly for flexibility, as there is in England, to allow farmers the choice to either cull the infected dam whilst in calf, or to allow them to isolate the dam, allowing it to calve before being culled. This would not be a seismic change in policy, but it would be a seismic change to the mental well-being of a number of farmers, who suffer the emotional and physical effects of seeing pregnant cows slaughtered and the calves drowning, suffocating in their mothers' wombs. Some would call it callous that a Welsh Government policy is having such a materially negative impact on farmers' welfare. I note that you expect the technical advisory group to look at this with urgency, and that is welcome, but I don't think this is a technical issue per say; it is more an issue of well-being for the farmer, for the dam, and for the calf. If it can be done elsewhere in the UK, then I don't see why the Welsh Government can't move faster on this issue.
Secondly, Minister, whilst finally we can see a positive change when it comes to the recent decline in the number of animals slaughtered in Wales due to TB, this margin of decline pales in comparison to the substantial reduction witnessed across the border: 2 per cent in Wales, compared to a 21 per cent decline in England. I wonder what they're doing in England that we're not doing here in Wales that is helping to eradicate TB—amazing that the scientific data is ignored when its politically inconvenient. This decrease in Wales, though, comes off the back of four years of increases to the number of cattle slaughtered in Wales between 2017 and 2021, meaning that figures are decreasing from a high starting point. Yet another harsh reality of the situation in Wales, however, is the increase in overall herd prevalence across Wales over the last year, from June 2022 to June 2023, again performing far behind our neighbours, where there has been a decrease during the same period. It is deeply regrettable that our Welsh farmers lose out yet again when it comes to the disastrous impacts of this disease, unveiling Wales as the poorest performer in Great Britain when it comes to tackling bovine TB.
At the NFU Cymru conference just a few weeks ago, Minister, you outlined your key aim when it comes to overpayments on compensation fees, as you have done again here today. As I've stated before, Minister, the single best way to decrease the amount spent on compensation, to cut that financial number, is to eradicate the disease here in Wales. In order to do this effectively, we must pull out all the stops, using all methods available to us. You mention the toolbox in your statement—well, every tool must be available, yet, sadly, we know that not to be true here in Wales. I'm a strong advocate for key performance indicators, and on something like TB eradication, I think they can be a helpful tool as we work towards TB eradication. Can the Minister outline what key targets she is looking to meet within this TB eradication programme after a year, three years, five years, et cetera? If we don't have clear targets, then the risk is that eyes will be taken off the goal.
Finally, Minister, in relation to the Pembrokeshire project, can I commend all those who have worked incredibly hard to make this a reality, especially Brendan Griffin and Roger Lewis? But can you, Minister, give the Chamber, and those in Pembrokeshire looking to participate, both farmers and vets—can you give them the reassurance that the recent cuts to the rural affairs budget won't have an impact on the delivery of this programme, and that it will be resourced appropriately so that it can be given a fair and even chance of success?
I've said before that I don't really care who eradicates bovine TB in Wales, as long as it's eradicated, because I am sick to the back teeth of having farmers in tears on the phone, because of the horrific impact that this disease has on their livestock and on their lives. The date for bovine TB eradication in Wales has already been pushed back to 2041, and what farmers and the agricultural community need now is hope—hope that this Government is taking it seriously and will use all the tools available to it to grip this issue by the scruff and defeat this disease once and for all. Minister, can you give the farming community that hope? Diolch, Llywydd.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you for that series of comments and questions. You started with on-farm slaughter of in-calf cows, and you will have heard what I said in my initial statement, that officials are looking at this. I appreciate it was before you came to the Senedd, but back in 2019 I asked the then chief veterinary officerto work with the industry, to see what further could be done. And we did work with the industry. We piloted on-farm euthanasia, but there was a very low take-up from our farmers. So, what I've asked officials to do is go back, see if we can find out why there was that low take-up, because, clearly, there was a barrier of some description that we needed to work with. I absolutely accept how distressing it is for farmers and their families when that is taking place. I've had advice from the Royal Veterinary College around it; we've worked with the APHA, to ask them to work closely with farms that are impacted with this. And I have asked, as I say, officials, to have another look, because anything we can do would, I think, obviously not just help farmers' mental health issues, because it's so distressing, but to make sure that animals aren't suffering when there is no need for it. But, obviously, we need to remove positive TB reactors from our farms as quickly as possible.
In relation to the technical advisory group, yes, I have asked them—or I will ask them, I should say, when the group is set up. If I can just say, and this is a bit of a plea, I suppose—. As I say, we've increased the length of time when people can apply to go on both the programme board and the technical advisory group. I would really urge people to put their names forward, and if anybody in the Chamber knows of anybody that they think would be suitable, then please ask them to apply.
In relation to, I suppose, your dig at what we're doing differently to the UK Government, you only have to look at Anglesey, and, if you look at Anglesey, where we've now unfortunately got a hotspot, we were TB free there. Now, when we've done testing—. You will have heard me say previously that, where we've done testing—the 'badger found dead' survey, for instance—we've found that, as part of the 'badger found dead' survey, we had no positive badgers identified on Anglesey to date. We undertook a badger and a biosecurity survey, specifically on Holy Island, in March 2023 to assess the levels of badger activity. And we've had that first year of the badger vaccination, as I referred to. So, I think that was a very sweeping generalisation. And, as you know, it's a programme for government commitment that we will not cull badgers as part of the TB eradication programme.
I do think the statistics are positive. I'm keener than anyone to eradicate TB, and I think it was an ambitious target, by 2041. We looked at a significant amount of both scientific—. I talked to experts—obviously, Glyn Hewinson has been amazing in his work with us—to reach that figure of 2041. If we can do it earlier, all well and good, but I think it is an ambitious target. And if you look at the statistics, you can look at the long term, you can look at the medium term, you can look at the short term. The short term is very, very encouraging, but obviously the very nature of the disease is fluctuating, so I think you've got to be very careful when you read statistics. But the medium- and long-term, as well, statistics are encouraging that we are on the right path.
Thank you for your work with the Pembrokeshire project. I'm really pleased that we've now got it going. Obviously, budgets are a matter of discussion, but I will do all I can to support the budget for it, because we've just set the project up and I really want to see what we can do. You mentioned Brendan and Roger in particular, and I pass on my thanks to everyone involved in that Pembrokeshire project, and I'm looking forward to seeing what results we get from the project as we go forward. It took a little while to get there, but I think having that careful consideration—. And what's so good about that project is it's really led by industry. And I go back to what I was saying about partnership working and how we all need to work together.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you to the Minister for the statement and for giving me advance sight of it. We in Plaid Cymru do recognise the gravity of the issue and the urgent need for a comprehensive strategy that will not only eradicate the disease but will also tackle the huge challenges facing our farmers and our rural communities. But the findings of a recent poll of 500 cattle farmers in Wales do demonstrate the economic losses as well as the anguish faced by those living with TB. Indeed, NFU Cymru said that the results demonstrated that farmers in Wales didn't have confidence in what the Government here is doing to tackle TB.The fact that the Minister has had to extend the period for applications for the eradication programme board suggest that it's not only farmers that have a lack of confidence in the Government's management programme. The poll demonstrated that 85 per cent of respondents said that bovine TB had had a negative impact on their mental health, with 93 per cent expressing huge concerns about bovine TB. And 89 per cent stated that the Government's actions were poor or very poor.
There is great frustration among the agricultural community that political ideology is being prioritised over scientific evidence when it comes to tackling the reservoir in our wildlife. It would be good to hear the Minister set out the details of how the Government is going to tackle this issue specifically in her response. It is known that culling badgers in areas where the disease is prevalent is an effective tool in preventing further spread, but the Government has made it entirely clear that they don't want to see any cull of badgers. Evidence from Ireland shows the efficiency ofvaccinating badgers, but the vaccination plans in Wales are very small scale indeed. The grant is only available on 42 farms at the moment. Surely, the Minister can't think that this is adequate, so what plans does the Government have to expand this programme?
It's true to note that the statistics suggest that there is a fall in prevalence of TB in some areas of Wales, which, of course, is to be welcomed. But the disease continues to be very stubborn in other areas, and has started to spread into new areas, as we've already heard, including Gwynedd and Anglesey, for example, and the percentage of herd prevalence has increased. So, whilst some things are working, it's clear that the current plan in its entirety isn't working. Thousands of cattle continue to be culled because of TB, and farms across Wales continue to have to live with TB.
It's disappointing to hear the Minister complaining about overspend in reimbursement. If effective steps had been taken and implemented sooner to tackle TB, then this wouldn't be an issue—the money wouldn't have to be spent. Furthermore, by reintroducing pre-movement testing and extending the expectations of post-movement testing, the Minister is going to put even more financial pressure on cattle farmers without any additional financial support. So, does the Minister believe that this is sustainable, and does she have any plans to provide more support for this?
I welcome the Minister's comments that officials are looking at how letters to farmers are to be drafted, but the Minister said this back in March. It's concerning therefore to hear that nothing has happened in the past eight months. So, what steps have been taken to this end, and does this demonstrate that the department doesn't have the capacity to do the necessary work to tackle these issues?

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: This announcement regarding the programme board and TAG has been a long time coming. The Minister refers to a number of ex-officio members on the board, but the lack of clarity is striking as to what role there will be for the unions who represent both farmers and vets in the new governance structure. So, some clarity on this from the Minister would be appreciated.
I asked previously about lessons from the TB Advisory Service in England, but never received a satisfactory reply. Therefore, can the Minister explain what lessons the Government has learnt from TBAS in England? And finally, Cymorth TB should be a good programme, but the last figures I saw at least showed a very low uptake in the numbers. So, can the Minister explain why this is the case and what the Government is doing to improve take-up and ensure its availability for all those who need it? Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much, Mabon, for those questions and comments. I absolutely agree that TB is not just about the economic cost—it's about the emotional cost as well. I've been on farms where TB tests have just been done and they're waiting for the results, or they're looming in the very short term, and it's very clear to see the concerns that farmers have. So, it's really important that we carry on working in partnership, and I think one of the things that we haven't discussed—but this is something that we thought very important—is that we gave funding for our markets to be able to display information so that farmers could make that informed purchasing. So, it's really important—. As I say, Government cannot do it on its own, the sector can't do it on its own, vets can't do it in their own. It's really important we all work together, so, for me, informed purchasing was something that I was very happy to support so that farmers could make those decisions.
I go back to what I said about Anglesey. We were TB free on Anglesey and now we've got it as a hotspot, and there is no evidence to suggest that that is because of wildlife. I think it's really important to remember that intra-species transmission is more likely than inter-species transmission. So, cattle-to-cattle spread is more likely than badger-to-cattle, or cattle-to-badger. So, I appreciate that both Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Conservatives seem to have a focus on badgers, but we have ruled it out as a programme for government commitment. And it's not ideology. We look at the science, we look at the information coming forward, and, obviously, officials advise me on that.
I wasn't complaining about compensation at all. It's absolutely right that Government compensates farmers for cattle that are slaughtered because of TB. What I was saying was that thebudget every year is overspent. Now, you could say the budget needs to be bigger, but you'll appreciate that some of that funding used to come from the European Union. We’ve had to find that funding, which we have done, and I will make sure that—even if the budget is overspent this year, I will make sure that farmers are compensated. But I think every country is looking at TB compensation. This is public money, after all, and we have to make sure that it’s appropriately spent. When we had the consultation—this is a couple of years ago now—I could see that, obviously, compensation was an issue we needed to look at further. So, I did put it to one side, but I do think we perhaps need to revisit that.
I can assure you the letters have changed, and something has happened already, but I think it’s important that we keep monitoring that, because what might be empathetic to one person might not be empathetic to another person. So, I look at those letters as well, because I like to think I’m an empathetic person, and I do think it is really important. Language is so important. When you’re communicating stressful information, it is really important that we get it right. So, it’s something that we’re carrying on monitoring.
I’m sure that, if the chief veterinary officer was standing here, he would say he could definitely use more officials in his office, but I don’t think capacity is an issue in relation this. I think everybody is on board with ensuring that communications with our farmers—. Because it came out very strongly in the consultation that we held that it was an area where farmers thought we could improve, and we did something straight away in relation to that. As I say, we started with the letters from the Animal and Plant Health Agency, but we are working on all our communications, and that includes other Government communications as well.
I wasn’t aware of any concerns about Cymorth. I will look at the statistics again. I will certainly see if there is an issue where perhaps we need to be encouraging more, but it wasn’t an area that I was concerned about. But I will certainly ask my officials, and, if there is something, I’m very happy to look at that. Because, again, we’re funding that, and it’s important that farmers use every tool that they have access to going forward.
I am pleased that the programme board and the technical advisory group is now nearly there. I extended it not because of a lack of interest; I extended it because I wanted to make sure that everybody had had the opportunity to do so. We’ve only extended it by—. It was going to be two weeks, but we decided on four weeks, and that will give us time over the Christmas recess to have a look and make sure in the new year we’re able to do that. But Glyn Hewinson is doing some fantastic work for us, as you’re probably very well aware already, and I do look forward to when it is there and they can look at things urgently. As I say, one of the first things I’m going to ask them to look at is the on-farm slaughter.

Joyce Watson AC: I'm really pleased to hear about the Pembrokeshire bovine TB project and the launch of that, and I’d be really interested to see the updates and ask you whether you have an idea of when those might be forthcoming. I know it’s early days, and we just have to look at that progress, but it’s a really good example of partnership working.
I know that the opposition and Plaid are intent on killing badgers. In fact, in England, they’ve killed 210,000 badgers in their bovine TB eradication policy, and yet there’s no proof at all that that has contributed in any way whatsoever to the decline in TB in cattle. It is a barbaric practice and in some cases there has been local extinction of badger populations. But if we’re talking about a rethink, Minister, have you looked at any farms that have perpetual TB status, and have you considered the question of whether those particular farms should be dairy farms at all? Because if it is the case that they are in perpetual TB infection status, surely they need to find another business.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much. Yes, the Pembrokeshire project is certainly very new. I was very pleased we were able to commence it this year. It's really good that the vets are currently engaging with farms. I go back to what I was saying about partnership working: I think the response from the practices has been very good, the response from the farmers has been very good. We had five vets attending two days of training, and I look forward to seeing, hopefully, some really positive results, and I'll be very happy to keep Members updated. The whole point of that project was to empower both farmers and vets to make informed decisions and really show leadership, working with Government.
Joyce Watson may remember—it's probably about four or five years ago now—that we looked at long-term breakdowns, so that was herds that had been in TB breakdown for over 18 months, and we did some bespoke action plans, if you remember. We didn't think that worked and that's why we haven't done it, and that's why we've got the new delivery plan for the eradication programme for the next five years.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Can I thank my colleague Samuel Kurtz for not only standing up for the farmers in Wales, but for also helping me to stand up for my farmers in Aberconwy? I've had those heartbreaking discussions with farmers, and there isn't a single Member on these benches that can deny that there is inequality between farmers in Wales and the rest of Great Britain. Vets across Wales are using a different, severe interpretation TB chart from England and Scotland when reading test results. The outcome of this is serious. It means that a cow that scores, for example, 7/7 would be conclusive in Wales. However, that very same cow scoring 7/7 in England and Scotland would be a pass.
Now you know I've raised this with you before, Minister. Consequently, you're locking down farms in Wales that would be clear in England and Scotland. So, how you can argue that there isn't inequality there, it just baffles me. Scotland has been officially TB free since 2009, so the aim of ridding Wales of TB is not a reasonable ground for a more severe reading.
On 6 June you were unable to explain to me in this Senedd why your testing chart is more severe than Scotland's and England's, preferring instead to write to me. So, on 28 September you did write to me, stating, and I quote,
'It is England and Scotland who have amended the test chart.'
So, my question to you, Minister, is: if it works for them and their numbers are coming down, why are you not following the lead of England and Scotland by providing equality between farmers across Great Britain by using the same testing chart? There is obviously a science behind this, so why is it any different in Wales from England and Scotland? Please help me out with that, because my farmers are raising this with me all the time, and they do deserve a sensible answer. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I gave you a sensible answer in the letter and we absolutely follow the science. And you only have to look at the key statistics going forward. And I mentioned in my earlier answer—I think it was to Sam Kurtz—that the short-term trends, if you look at the 12 months to June 2023, new incidents decreased to 609 from 649, so that's a 6.2 per cent decrease. Now, as I said, it's very fluctuating, so for short-term statistics I do urge caution. For medium-term trends, in the 12 months to June 2023 there was an 18.4 per cent decrease, and in the long term, for the same period, there was a 48.6 per cent decrease in new incidents. So, it absolutely is working.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you very much for the statement. I am passionate about animal welfare, as I know many are in this Siambr, but it is an absolute tragedy that 10,000 cattle until June 2023, close to that number—really only a very minor decrease—have been slaughtered. And I, like others, have heard the absolutely heartbreaking and indeed, I feel, barbaric accounts of in-calf heifers being slaughtered on farms.
I wonder if I could ask you: could we have the numbers at some point? Because that would really help us look at the scale of that particular issue, which is raised on a constant basis. And also I'm pleased to hear that you're looking at that as a priority for the group, but I wonder if you might have a timescale in your head in terms of how we can actually change that—because it doesn't seem to me that that's a difficult process—or an answer to give to those farmers who are in desperate situations?
I also am pleased to hear that the eradication programme board and TAG has extended the deadline, but I wonder how you're going to ensure that active farmers are actually part of those boards, because those are the people we need challenging you and your officials to move the agenda forward. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Just in relation to the last point, that was one of the reasons I did extend it, to make sure that as many farmers as possible knew about it, and that information had been disseminated in a way that we have the active farmers who will have the first-hand knowledge of it, to make sure that if anybody did want to apply, they could do. So, that was the main reason for extending the date for applying.
In relation to on-farm slaughter of in-calf heifers, I don't have the figure in front of me, but I'll certainly be very happy to try and get it to you. And I'll be very happy, if I write to Jane Dodds, Llywydd, to put a copy of the letter in the Library. But I will go back to what I said in an earlier answer. Following the raising of concerns and discussions with the farming industry back in 2019, we did run some pilots in relation to this. But because there was a low take-up of farms affected, there were quite significant—if I remember rightly—logistical decisions and difficulties in removing those TB-affected animals within the 10 working days, so the pilot ended.
So, I go back to what I said, I think it was to Sam Kurtz: I want to know what the barriers were in relation to that, to see what difficulties there were. If the sector wants to work with us in relation to this, I am very keen to try and find a way through, because I absolutely understand how distressing it is. In the interim, while officials are looking at it—. Officials have worked with APHA and have asked them to work closely with farmers who are impacted by this situation at the very start of the process, to see what can be done to make sure that they understand the procedure, and to make sure that they understand the different stages.
But I am very keen, if there is anything that we can find out—. That's why I have asked for consideration of the policy to be—. Well, I will ask, sorry. When the technical advisory group comes in, I will ask them to look at this policy first, as a matter of urgency. Because I think that anything that we can do in relation to this would be incredibly positive for everybody.

James Evans AS: Minister, I'd like to thank you for your statement this afternoon. As you know, Minister, we lose vast numbers of cattle to bovine TB, but, during TB tests, we also sometimes lose human life. People do die while carrying out TB tests. I have been contacted by families and friends of those farmers who have lost people during TB tests, and they all tell me that something has got to change. So, Minister, what support can the Welsh Government and its agencies give to farmers to ensure that our TB tests are safer, and are not as cumbersome for farmers, so that our farmers are kept safe and we won't lose any life unnecessarily while carrying out TB tests here in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As I say, I don't underestimate the emotional cost, and unfortunately, you are quite right. I am aware of the loss of—. I can think of two incidents in my time as Minister where that has happened. I mentioned that it's really important that APHA works very closely with farmers to make sure that they understand the procedure. It is important that everybody is safe—that our farmers are safe, that our vets are safe and, of course, that the animals are safe too. That is just ongoing work at all times. I mentioned the funding that we give to support groups. I mentioned Tir Dewi. I mentioned DPJ Foundation. And I would urge any farmer who has any concerns, not just in relation to TB, but at any time, about any issues, to please seek support.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the Minister.

9. Statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language: 'Cymraeg 2050': Annual Report 2022 to 2023

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item is a statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language on 'Cymraeg 2050', the annual report for this year. The Minister, therefore, to make the statement. Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Today, I present the annual report on our Welsh language strategy, 'Cymraeg 2050: A million Welsh speakers', for the 2022-23 financial year. The report looks back at our progress during the year in implementing 'Cymraeg 2050' in the context of our 2021-26 work programme, our programme for government, our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, and our commitments in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015.
This was another busy year in relation to language policy, as we worked across Government and with various partners the length and breadth of Wales and beyond. Today, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who worked with us throughout the year. I must mention our grant partners, specifically, who worked tirelessly with us again this year, to support us on our journey towards a million Welsh speakers and doubling the daily use of our language.
We saw the restarting of in-person events, such as our eisteddfodau and small festivals, during the reporting year. We also saw the continuation of the innovation that we saw during the pandemic, as online provision began to co-exist alongside face-to-face events and sessions.

Jeremy Miles AC: Now, I'd like to draw your attention to some of the year's highlights. We launched a consultation on a White Paper on proposals for the Welsh language education Bill. Each local authority's new Welsh in education strategic plans became operational. We further invested in late-immersion provision to give more children the opportunity to become part of the Welsh-medium education system. We published the Welsh in education workforce plan. We funded a pilot project to support local authorities in the south-east to promote Welsh language education. We also funded the Urdd to re-establish the Youth Theatre. We offered further investment to the National Centre for Learning Welsh and the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol to increase the proportion of Welsh-medium further education and apprenticeships available, and to provide free Welsh lessons to those between 16 and 25 and to the education workforce. We introduced Welsh language standards for health regulators. We published the new 'More than just words' scheme. We published the Welsh language communities housing plan, which relates to housing policy, community development, the economy and language planning. We launched the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities. And we also invested in a variety of community projects through the Perthyn programme.
This was an important year in terms of statistics, with the first data relating to the Welsh language from the 2021 census being published. We have discussed these data in detail in the Senedd previously, but it is worth looking at the main findings again. According to the data, 538,300 people aged three years or older were able to speak Welsh in Wales, or 17.8 per cent of the population—that's a decrease from the 2011 census. Since the publication of the data, Government officials and Government statisticians have been scrutinising them and analysing our trajectory towards the million to see what adjustments will need to be made.
The census results give us a clear indication of the areas we need to focus on in the future. There are two standout areas. The drop in the number of five to 15-year-olds able to speak Welsh. This is a reminder that we need to strengthen our approach to teaching Welsh in our English-medium schools, as well as expanding Welsh-medium education. The aim of the Welsh language education Bill is for all pupils, regardless of the medium of teaching, to leave our schools as confident Welsh speakers who are eager to use their language skills in the community, in the workplace and in everyday life.
During the reporting year, we funded a champion for the promotion of Welsh-medium education post in the south-east for the very first time. The champion will raise the profile of Welsh-medium education in partnership with the local authorities, the mentrau iaith and education partners across the region. Promotion intervention measures and the current provision have been mapped out, regional good practice has been shared and a suite of resources have been developed to try and improve access to Welsh-medium education, with a particular focus on the families of children with additional learning needs and families from minority ethnic backgrounds. At the end of the pilot, we will assess progress and consider extending it to other areas.
Secondly, there was a change in our traditional Welsh-speaking communities. We have already commissioned a sociolinguistic survey to better understand what lies behind the decline so that we can introduce appropriate interventions to reverse the trend. This work will support the remit of the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities that we set up during August 2022. We have also established the Perthyn project that offers specialist advice to support communities to develop co-operative initiatives, and community-led housing co-operatives, and this in order to strengthen the sustainability of our Welsh-speaking communities. Over 20 groups have already benefited from the programme. I referred yesterday in a press releaseto the CarTrefUn project in Hermon, Pembrokeshire, where a local group are about to buy a former chapel to turn it into a heritage centre, cafe and affordable flats. This is aspecial project and is possible due to local efforts and a Perthyn grant of £21,000. The second round of the grant fund has now opened, and we will be announcing which schemes have been successful shortly.
One important point to remember is that the census doesn't measure language use. The number using our language across the country and beyond, whether on our sports fields, at all sorts of gigs or on social media, is as important to the vision of 'Cymraeg 2050' as is the number of speakers, and we will not lose sight of that.
Everyone who takes an interest in Welsh language policy is aware that other surveys show different trends to those in the 2021 census in terms of the number of people able to speak Welsh. According to the annual population survey, for example, 906,000 people aged three years or older could speak Welsh in the year that ended in 31 March 2023, and that's 29.7 per cent of the population. We have therefore created a work plan jointly with the Office for National Statistics in order to find out more about these differences in data. The scheme’s first output has been published recently and we look forward to seeing the next steps.
Looking ahead, despite the challenges presented by the census results, the narrative around the Welsh language has certainly changed and there is more support than ever for the language. The entire nation was disappointed with the census data, and we must all take hold of that energy and enthusiasm to work together to make a difference for the Welsh language. Let us continue to do so, therefore, together, on our journey towards a million Welsh speakers and doubling the daily use of our language.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Thank you to the Minister for the opportunity to review the 'Cymraeg 2050' programme annual report as well as for having previous site of his statement this afternoon. I'd like to echo the Minister’s thanks to everyone who worked to promote the Welsh language over the past 12 months. As is noted in the annual report, the past year has witnessed the revival of many events and shows after a hiatus due to COVID, which is to be very warmly welcomed.
This is the first annual report since the publication of the 2021 census results, which revealed a decrease in the use of the Welsh language among those aged three and above in Wales. The report highlights two vital issues, namely the decline in Welsh language skills amongst children between the ages of five and 15 and the decline in the traditional so-called heartlands. I would like to understand the impact of the new curriculum and the Welsh language education Bill on these statistics. I often speak in favour of KPIs in the 'Cymraeg 2050' programme, and I’d like to know whether any targets have been proposed to measure the effectiveness of the Bill and the curriculum. The Minister referred to the Welsh language’s decline in the traditional heartlands and the survey commissioned to understand the underlying reasons for this. Minister, could you tell us when the results of this survey will be published, and will they be presented in this Chamber for scrutiny and debate?
Last year, I expressed concerns about the low number of children in the cylchoedd meithrin, which is significantly lower than pre-pandemic levels. I’m interested in knowing whether these figures have improved over the past 12 months. Also, what progress has been made in terms of recruiting teachers and students who are fluent in Welsh, which is crucial for reaching the targets of 'Cymraeg 2050'?
It's essential that we ensure that learners in further education colleges and apprentices have the opportunity to improve their Welsh language skills. This is vital to create a bilingual workforce in sectors such as education, health and social care, childcare, public services and agriculture. So, what is your vision for ensuring that the post-16 sector makes a greater contribution towards the aim of a million Welsh speakers and doubling the daily use of the language?
Although the Welsh language receives significant resources and attention during children and young people’s time in education, there is a significant decline after that. Therefore, we must carefully scrutinise the Welsh language provision later in life, including the 'Cymraeg 2050' work programme for 2021-26, and the expansion of the late immersion programme for learners in later life. We must evaluate the effectiveness of these initiatives on an annual basis as we move forward.
Finally, I can’t ignore HSBC’s recent decision to terminate its Welsh language customer service line. I am awaiting a meeting with bank representatives in the hope that this step doesn’t suggest a wider trend of businesses turning their backs on their commitment to the Welsh language. Minister, what steps are being taken to ensure that businesses not only comply with guidance on bilingual services, but also embrace the spirit and ethos of that guidance?
The number of Welsh speakers increased in the two decades before devolution but the number has declined in the two decades since. We must reverse this decline. The Welsh language belongs to us all, and we must take all the necessary steps to sustain progress towards the 2050 targets. It’s our responsibility in this Chamber to ensure that support is available to achieve this. Thank you, Llywydd.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Samuel Kurtz for asking a number of questions. I’ll try and cover most of them at the outset. He mentioned the census and, as my statement mentioned, the figures in the census are clear, but it’s also worthwhile casting an eye on the blog published in October which analyses what we think is happening in terms of the numbers in the census on the one hand, and the numbers in the annual survey on the other. There are some very interesting elements in that analysis that can provide us with ideas as to how we should tackle this picture. For example, almost 40 per cent of people who reported that they could speak Welsh in the survey or in the 2021 census had recorded that they weren’t able to do that in the other source. So, that’s 40 per cent saying in one that they could, and in the other that they couldn’t. So, analysing that is important in this context.
He mentioned the KPIs. As we develop the Welsh in education Bill in conjunction with Plaid Cymru, we have a very ambitious aim in that Bill in terms of ensuring that every child leaves statutory education, whatever medium that education, as a confident Welsh speaker. So, that is an ambition that I would argue that is just as ambitious as—perhaps more ambitious than—the million Welsh speakers. So, as we introduce that, we will need to understand the steps towards that exactly, as we are already doing with the trajectory of the Welsh language towards 2050. We have milestones on the pathway towards that, and I’ve said on a number of occasions that we need to secure progress throughout the period, not just towards the final target.
He asks about early years and the progress made there. Through our support as a Government, 17 new settings were established during 2022-23, and this is part of a broader target of opening 60 settings during this Senedd term, and building on reaching the target of establishing 40 new Sefydlu a Symud groups over three years. So, that does demonstrate solid progress, I would suggest. He is right to say that that, of course, is reliant on ensuring that we are able to provide an appropriate workforce to expand that provision. We saw the sector losing workers during the pandemic, so there is an increased emphasis on this now, with officials collaborating in order to tackle the issue, and Mudiad Meithrin is working with us on that, which is very important. We report regularly, of course, as the Member knows, on our performance as a nation, as a Government and local authorities, against the targets in the Welsh workforce plan, and I've already committed to do that so that we understand the joint impact of all the interventions that we have in that plan.
He's right to say that it's also important to bear in mind how important contributing to post-16 education is to the progress that we all want to see. I mentioned in my statement the investment in the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol in order to expand opportunities for apprenticeships and post-16 education more generally. That has borne fruit. There's more to be done there, of course, but it is important in terms of the Welsh language, and it's also important in terms of the development of our local economies across Wales—people leaving college and working locally, and that's an important part of how we support our language and its prosperity for the future. The provision for adult education is also important, as he said. We've expanded that provision in terms of the numbers learning as adults, and what we have in the pipeline for the Bill—namely a whole-life continuum in terms of language skills—so that education providers, along with employers and others, understand what the milestones are. That's another important part of providing for adults.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister, for your statement. I'd like to start by reflecting on your final words and the final words spoken by Samuel Kurtz in his questions to you. You mentioned that the narrative around the Welsh language had changed, that there is more support than ever for the Welsh language. Certainly, there are warm words, but if we contrast that with the decision taken by HSBC, and some of the things that they said in English only to us, namely that everyone was able to speak English, we must recognise that it is still a battle in terms of the language. So, despite the normalisation and the celebration of that, it's still very difficult to insist on those rights as Welsh speakers, or those who want to speak the language. We still don't have equal access to the Welsh language, wherever you live in Wales. If you have additional learning needs, you don't have equal access in terms of the services that you deserve. So, I do think that there are things, of course, that we must celebrate and we should emphasise that, but we must also remind ourselves that warm words don't create Welsh speakers and neither do they generate progress in terms of language use.
And the one thing I would like to say is that, of course, there are areas that are being prioritised by parties in terms of the co-operation agreement, and it's good to see that, and we are all united in this Senedd, I believe, in terms of that target of a million Welsh speakers, but it is a target, not an ambition. With definitive targets, we can measure the progress in that sense. I understand the points that you've made on a number of occasions in terms of the different figures in relation to the census and the Welsh Government's surveys. I don't fully accept them. Because the truth of the matter is, in terms of the measures in 'Cymraeg 2050', the target for increasing the percentage of year 1 learners taught through the medium of Welsh is 26 per cent by 2026. There's been a decline from 23.9 per cent in 2021-22 to 23.4 per cent in 2022-23. In terms of year 7 pupils studying through the medium of Welsh, a decline from 20.1 per cent to 19.3 per cent. These are the figures that count in terms of how many are in receipt of Welsh-medium education. So, we can argue whether the census results are accurate or not and whether there are more speakers, but these are the figures in the target as regards a million Welsh speakers.
I had the privilege yesterday of visiting the immersion unit in Carreg Lam, Torfaen, and I saw the importance of the investment that's been made by the Welsh Government in areas such as Torfaen, but there is inconsistency in terms of immersion across Wales. That's certainly the case in Rhondda Cynon Taf, where there isn't an immersion centre where you can go for 12 weeks, as compared to Torfaen or the Vale of Glamorgan, where there are such centres. The Minister can laugh, but this is the reality on the ground in Wales, and I would hope that he could recognise that there is inconsistency. There are some councils who aren't willing to accept someone who is in Welsh-medium education into an immersion centre—they have to be late arrivals. So, there is inconsistency, and I think we have to ensure that whoever needs or wants immersion can access that service wherever they live in Wales, and it's never too late for someone to take up the Welsh language in their education journey.
I'm pleased to see a difference also in terms of your statement this afternoon and what you said in your introduction to the annual report. I have to say that I was very surprised to see the sentence in the document itself saying that
'This data'—
referring to the census—
'is a reminder that our approach to teaching Welsh in our English medium schools needs to be strengthened.'
You have added in your statement today in terms of expanding Welsh-medium education too, but I would like to ask what evidence you have that demonstrates that increasing the amount of Welsh taught in English-medium schools is more effective than increasing the numbers in receipt of Welsh-medium education. Because this is a narrative—. We're talking about continuing to ensure that people can't access Welsh-medium education, so what is that evidence that increasing English-medium education is the best way of creating Welsh speakers? All evidence seems to demonstrate to me that it's Welsh-medium education and immersion that works.
We now do have to not talk about warm words and say that Welsh belongs to everyone; the Welsh language needs to belong to everyone, and that means equal opportunity, wherever you live in Wales, to receive Welsh-medium education, but also use the Welsh language.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Heledd Fychan for those comments. The battle rhetoric is part of our comfort zone in linguistic terms—we think of everything as a battle—but the question for us to deal with is are people learning the language to be part of a battle. I think that the language that we're trying to establish, in terms of discussing the language as something that is welcoming to everyone and open to everyone, as she recognised in her final sentences, is far more effective than listing those negative elements. It's important that we are open about the challenges that we face, but it is also truly important that we look at the Welsh language as something that is for everyone and create a welcoming environment in that regard, not just looking at it as a constant battle.
I thank the Member for the welcome that she gave to the statement. It truly is important that we look at the data, as she mentioned in her contribution, but the work that's been done to analyse the difference between the census and the survey is important. It's just different data. The figures show us different things. For example, it shows some of the cohorts that are more likely to say in one statement that they are Welsh speakers, but less likely in another. So, it's important that we take this into account. We have already committed to looking at the trajectory in terms of what we've seen in the census, and it will be important that we do that.
I was smiling. The Member said I was laughing, but I was smiling in thinking of Welsh-medium immersion, one of the most successful policies that we have. We can look at all of the negatives here, but the truth of the matter is that all parts of Wales have bid for immersion funding and are investing that funding. If we had been talking about that five years ago, nobody would have believed it possible, so there has been progress. Of course, it's not consistent, but the situation of the Welsh language isn't consistent across Wales. The expertise in our councils isn't consistent. But everyone is on a journey towards achieving that aim. And I agree with her; it's extremely important that there is equal opportunity for children to access immersion. It works. We know that. And it's also important, I recognise, that there is an opportunity after that to go into Welsh-medium education. But I truly believe that the immersion policy is a success. There is more to be done, of course, but I think there's recognition now, in all parts of Wales, that it is effective and that people are eager to do this. So, I congratulate local authorities for looking at that.
She asked about the rationale for enhancing Welsh teaching in English-medium settings. Well, we know that we need to expand Welsh-medium education and we have ambitious plans to do that, but we can't develop the Welsh language by doing just that. We know that there are challenges in expanding Welsh-medium education—in staffing and other elements. So, we also need to ensure that the experience of children learning Welsh in English-medium schools is better than it is for many of them now. The picture is inconsistent. She herself mentioned inconsistency. There is great practice in some schools, but it's not so good in others, and we don't want to see any child leaving English-medium education without having had an opportunity to make progress in the Welsh language and to leave being able to speak Welsh confidently. That's a challenge, but we will not make progress by only emphasising Welsh-medium education. Parents will make a choice between Welsh-medium or English-medium education in Wales in the future, and that's a good thing. That's why we've been successful so far in providing that offer and encouraging people to make that choice, and they've done that. If you recognise that, then we do have to ensure that the quality of provision in all schools is good, and that's why it's so important that we recognise that.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you, Minister, for your statement this afternoon. Of course, part of the purpose of the target of 1 million Welsh speakers was to change pace within Government and to change pace of policy development within Government, and in reading the report this afternoon, it is clear that it's succeeded in doing that. I welcome the report, Minister, and I also welcome your commitment to the policy, and I think it is important to put that on the record.
I'd particularly like to welcome the establishment of the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities. I think that's very important. One of the images I remember from the successful Eisteddfod in the Llŷn peninsula, which I enjoyed immensely, was speaking to a woman from Porthmadog, who was a natural Welsh speaker but had a lack of confidence in using the Welsh language. And I think that's something important for us to consider, because I do believe that we need to increase the confidence of our fellow Welsh people in using the Welsh language, wherever they are, and also ensuring that people have more opportunity to use the Welsh language.
I do understand—and I agree, to a certain extent—what the Plaid Cymru and Conservative spokespeople have said about HSBC. But also, on the other hand, I remember being in Qatar this time last year and hearing the Welsh language being used by people and using the Welsh language myself in a different context. There is another side to this coin, and I do think that we need a little more optimism on occasion.
And I won't carry on on this theme, but I do want to welcome the opening of a new Welsh-medium school in Tredegar. This is something quite personal for me. For the first time, in the town of my birth, children will be speaking Welsh. For the first time in a century, children will be speaking Welsh. My grandmother, of course, spoke Welsh in Tredegar at the beginning of the last century, but that's because she came from a Welsh-speaking background. Now, we are creating new Welsh speakers in Tredegar for the first time in a century, and I think we should all welcome that.
So, I hope, Minister, in introducing this report, that you will move the policy emphasis away from bureaucracy around the Welsh language to confidence in using Welsh and encouraging the use of the Welsh language, and helping people to use more Welsh, particularly socially. And if we can do that, then we will have undertaken an important part of the journey towards 1 million Welsh speakers.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Alun Davies for that, and I agree with what he says. It is very encouraging indeed to see a Welsh-medium school being opened in Tredegar. The first school I visited when I was appointed was Ysgol Gymraeg Santes Tudful in Merthyr, and we see that, when we discuss with councils in areas that have lost the Welsh language over a period of decades, there is enthusiasm—from the mentrau iaith, the council and from local people—to increase provision. In all parts of Wales, councils are at a different stage of that journey for reasons that we can understand. But what we must celebrate and support is that we are taking everyone on that same journey to expand provision and try to maintain that enthusiasm and encourage more of it, as we see happening.
There are challenges in doing that, but we do have significant investment as a Government in Welsh-medium education in terms of capital and the staffing programme, so that we can make a reality of that. And I confidently believe, as I know Alun Davies also believes, that—. We are all saying that the Welsh language belongs to everyone, but really, it's that element of being welcoming, that learning Welsh is a means of joining a family of new friends that will welcome you, that will encourage more and more people to learn Welsh and to choose Welsh-medium education.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Gweinidog. Whereas we of course share the aims of 'Cymraeg 2050'—and I'm personally enjoying learning the language myself as a mature learner, shall I put it—the reality is that the last census saw the number of Welsh speakers decrease; it shined a light on this Welsh Government's failures to date. I'm deeply concerned about the failing of this Welsh Government to attract teachers into Welsh-medium education, particularly as we're building more Welsh-medium schools, of course, which we support, therefore increasing that demand, with particular concern about this Government's inability to attract teachers to teach in the important core subjects in the medium of Welsh. So, Minister, what urgent action is this Government taking to increase the number of Welsh-medium teachers, which must form part of this plan to achieve those aims that you set out in 'Cymraeg 2050'?

Jeremy Miles AC: The best way to get a sense of what we're doing in this space is to look at the 10-year plan that we've been able to agree with partners right across Wales—and I thank all of the partners who participated with us in designing that. It is a challenge—these are not challenges that Governments don't recognise or haven't sought to address. It is in fact a challenge to recruit Welsh-medium teachers in particular subjects—I absolutely acknowledge that. But the tone of the plan, as she will see, if she has a chance to read it, is very creative and it's very pragmatic—whether it's about bursaries for retention, whether it's about building relationships with students who've left Wales but who speak Welsh and who want to teach and who could be tempted to come back to Wales to teach, whether it's about increasing the numbers who are studying at A-level, which we know is a really clear indicator of the likelihood of going on to teach in Welsh, doing that through a significant expansion of our school-to-school e-sgol technology platform. There's a range of very creative options in that plan, and we've been clear that we'll be accountable, across Wales, with local authorities, for delivering on the numbers that the plan sets out. I will report periodically to the Senedd on that, so that we can be scrutinised, which is obviously a perfectly appropriate thing to do. But I'm actually much more interested in hearing ideas from others—if people feel the plan does not achieve that aim, what are we missing? So, if you have thoughts about what else we could consider, I think we should be open to hearing those. The tone of the plan is very pragmatic: the things that work, we will do more of, and the things that don't work, we will say that and we will stop doing them. So, this is a common challenge, there are lots of ideas that we are keen to explore, but, as I say, it's a living document. So, if the Member, or others, have suggestions that we might consider, I'm all ears.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the Minister.

10. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: Wales Electricity Transmission Infrastructure Needs for Net Zero

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Item 10 is next, the statement by the Minister for Climate Change on Wales electricity transmission infrastructure needs for net zero. I ask the Minister, therefore, to make here statement—Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I am pleased to update the Senedd on preparing Wales's electricity transmission infrastructure for net zero. The grid is a critical part of the energy system, and the UK Government decides how it is planned and funded. We do have some levers, mainly through our planning powers and our ability to work with Ofgem and the network operators to reflect Welsh requirements in their plans. We have also been engaged in proactively identifying the energy infrastructure that will be necessary to support Wales's economy and communities in the future.
The energy system is changing rapidly, and the work we are doing will help to ensure that those changes benefit Wales and respond to the climate emergency. Even without net zero and the need to shift to renewables, there would be reform needed in energy market regulation, as technologies, business models and consumer demand change over time. We are looking at the energy system from the top down and the bottom up to evidence Wales's future needs. From the top-down perspective, we have published our 'Future Energy Grids for Wales' report. This set out the results of taking a whole-system approach to identify the requirements for gas and electricity networks for a net-zero Wales. And from the bottom-up perspective, the Welsh Government is funding local authorities to develop local area energy plans across Wales. These build on the four regional energy strategies and start to identify the projects that will deliver the regional strategies' aims.
I would very much like to thank all the organisations who have been actively involved in these pieces of work, in particular the network companies, who continue to work with us to build Wales's requirements into network development plans. In some areas, it is very clear what we need, and we can get on now to deliver that with confidence. Many people in Wales have reported challenges connecting to the electricity grids, and these issues have been increasing over the last decade. From the energy plans and the 'Future Energy Grids for Wales' project, it is clear that we will need significant new and additional electricity transmission infrastructure.
The regulatory regime overseen by the UK Government has discouraged investment in transmission infrastructure ahead of need. As a result, Wales has seen very little investment in new transmission lines for decades. This lack of investment means that now many users, such as new housing developments and industrial sites trying to switch from fossil fuels to electricity, are finding they are being delayed until the 2030s. This is clearly unacceptable. To deliver the UK’s commitment to net zero, the regulatory regime must become more proactive and respond more rapidly.
I am really pleased to see Ofgem and the network operators working together on developing a more holistic approach to network planning. This involves a shift away from considering individual connections towards delivery of an integrated solution with the least possible cost and impact. We have already seen this work successfully identify the needs in relation to connecting the transmission lines that run along the north and south coasts of Wales. We are working with National Grid transmission to make sure our policies and priorities in Wales are applied in shaping the possible options for taking these new connections forward.
New grid will have an impact on the landscape. Welsh policy starts from the presumption that grid should be underground wherever possible, to reduce the visual impact. This contrasts to the UK Government's starting position that connections will be by overhead lines. National Grid transmission owner has commissioned a report updating the costs of delivering overhead lines and underground cables, which suggests conventional approaches to undergrounding can cost between three to 30 times the cost of overhead cables. Undergrounding can also have environmental impacts across a 40m wide corridor. Visual impacts, therefore, must be balanced with these others considerations.
However, an alternative process of undergrounding, cable ploughing, is championed by a Carmarthen-based company. It has been used for decades by distribution network companies for smaller cables. However, in other countries such as Germany, it is being used for some transmission cables, though these are not the same type of cables as we use in this country. As part of the follow up to the 'Future Energy Grids for Wales' report, establishing whether cable ploughing is technically possible for the largest lines will be important in understanding whether undergrounding can be more extensively adopted to increase acceptability and speed of delivery of new grid.
I and my Cabinet colleagues agree on the urgent need for new infrastructure. We also believe that leaving the deployment of new infrastructure to market forces will not maximise the benefits to the people of Wales. Instead, a proactive, co-ordinated approach is needed, working in social partnership between Government, business and communities. To enable UK decision making to take account of Welsh interests, we must set out clearly our expectations for the transmission network, based on a strong evidence base that reflects the future needs of Wales’s economy, environment and communities.
On this basis, we are working with representatives of all sectors and regions of Wales to develop a set of principles. Proposals for new electricity lines must meet these principles if they are to be supported by the Welsh Government. The principles will be developed within the framework of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. They will address community requirements, environmental impact, visual impact and cost, and will be integrated into Planning Policy Wales as they are developed.
Through this approach, this Government will champion Wales having the infrastructure it needs for the future, delivered in the right place in a way that minimises cost to the public, whilst protecting our environment for the future. These are difficult issues to balance, but we are clear that doing nothing is not an option. I am committed to ensuring that Wales is able to make the most of the opportunities from clean energy, and look forward to updating the Senedd once this work is completed. Diolch.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you for your statement, Minister. I think we all know that Wales's electricity demand is likely to almost triple by 2050, and this will come from electrification of heat, transport and green hydrogen production via electrolysis. Decarbonisation of heating in Wales will primarily rely on demand reduction and electrification, air source heat pumps and electric-resistive heating.
Meeting peak heat electricity demand is challenging due to many uncertainties influenced by factors such as energy efficiency retrofit, occupant behaviour and emerging heat technologies. In fact, the modelling of different scenarios of a net-zero Welsh energy system by 2050 has highlighted that significant reinforcement is required across electricity distribution and transmission networks, especially due to peak demand and renewables. So, a fewquestions here, Minister, please. What steps are you taking to ensure that the transition to electric vehicles and electric-dependent heating is not going to overwhelm the system at peak demand?
Electrolysis has been highlighted as a major potential source of energy demand. I always think of electrolysis, when you read about it, as being hair removal, but obviously there's a lot more to it than that. So, do you agree with me that the Welsh Government should deliver an ambitious long-term hydrogen strategy for Wales? Now, the 'Future Energy Grids for Wales (FEW)—Insights Report' states, and I quote:
'To achieve Net Zero, energy networks in Wales require substantial investment. Electricity networks must be reinforced to accommodate growing generation and demand.'
The recommendation includes the need for the Welsh Government to
'provide leadership, minimise uncertainty, and set out priority outcomes for the energy system'.
One aspect of infrastructure in Wales definitely does need some fresh leadership, and that is overhead lines and pylons. This Senedd knows well that such infrastructure is usually a major cause of concern, but we don’t necessarily have to use pylons. As you know, I’ve been in correspondence with the Minister about the cost of undergrounding new electricity lines. At present, that option is dismissed because of the comprehensive cost comparison undertaken in 2012, but that particular report is now over 10 years out of date. Now, to be fair, you have responded positively, Minister, advising that National Grid have commissioned a report from the Institution of Engineering and Technology to outline some options for new transmission networks. So, how far has that gone? What progress has been made with that report? Can you confirm that there will be a new comparison of the cost of undergrounding in comparison to just accepting the pylon option?
It has been highlighted that building a Welsh north-south transmission system link would present several opportunities for Wales. It is reckoned by National Gride ESO in the holistic network design that the estimated delivery time is beyond 2030, but that efforts are being made to accelerate delivery of the project and reduce the time to identify and build onshore electricity transmission assets. The recommendation is that the Welsh Government should engage with National Grid electricity transmission to convene and feed in the views of Welsh stakeholders around potential routes during the initial stages of design. So, please could you clarify to the Senedd what potential routes the Welsh Government are considering, and of course whether these will be subject to a good and effective public consultation?
Finally, we know that the Welsh energy system does need demand-side response, thermal and electricity storage and hydrogen storage. I’ve recently highlighted to the First Minister concerns around battery storage facilities in Wales. So, calls have been made for the Welsh Government to ensure a positive planning environment for projects on the distribution network. What progress are you making on this, Minister, as well as combating fears of residents around those energy storage proposals? Thank you. Diolch.

Julie James AC: Thank you very much, Janet. As I said in my—. I did answer quite a few of those questions in my statement. So, obviously we need a transition to a better grid system. We very much welcome the new holistic design process. It has been a long time coming, but at least we’re there now.
This isn’t devolved to Wales, but we’ve had quite a big input into what we think it should look like, and we’ve deliberately done the 'Future Energy Grids for Wales' report to inform it. We’re in some conversation with the grid about whether we can be what they describe as a regional partner in this, and I’m very much hoping that we will be the first part of the UK to take part in that. It’s quite obvious that we need both better distribution and better transmission networks, and we’re in discussion with—I’ve met with—the grid to talk about the boot strap, as they call it—the north Wales to south Wales transmission network. There are only a few viable routes, in truth, because the landscape of Wales is very difficult. It’s mountainous, as you know, and actually quite a large part of the bits that aren’t mountainous are in peat restoration areas or other protected landscapes. So, it isn’t very hard to see that there are only a couple of routes that we can have a look at.
In terms of undergrounding and overgrounding, we are in favour of undergrounding where at all possible, in contrast to the UK Government in England, who have the opposite view. We are waiting on the report to see whether we can do anything about adopting the cable ploughing methodology in particular. We use a different voltage system here in the UK than they do in Germany, where it's commonly used. So, I'm awaiting scientific and engineering advice on whether it's possible to use that for the transmission network. It certainly is for the distribution network, and, of course, we've used it for broadband for many years, so we are actively looking at that; we very much want to have that happen where possible.
Having said that, sometimes it will be—. We've been pushing the grid on this point. I would very much like the undergrounding to follow the road network, if at all possible, as we did for some of the broadband infrastructure. What we don't want is to plough out the peatland, for example, and so on. So, undergrounding comes with problems, but there are ways around that. It tends to be a slightly longer route, but I think that's probably beneficial. Where pylons are inevitable because there is no other route, then I'm very much in favour of having the communities that host pylons be part of the community benefit system in the way that the people who host the generation stations are. We're in active discussion with the sector about that, and I was up at the Celtic Manor conference centre the other day talking to the renewables industry, RenewableUK and RenewableUKCymru, about what we can do to have a gold standard community benefit system to help people who are along that network.
And lastly, it's making sure that, as you said, where we can decarbonise, we have a proper costed future energy plan, which we've been working on with our local authorities, and that's why I'm very hopeful now that the grid will work with us on that regional basis. But in the end, this isn't devolved, and so I do regularly meet with the UK Government Ministers and with the Crown Estate and with the two transmission operators in Wales to discuss this and to make sure that they know that we stand ready to help them. And I will be meeting with the new, yet another, energy Minister to discuss this as soon as we can get into the office.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you for the statement, Minister. First, I'd like to say that Plaid Cymru understands the pressing need for us all to get this up and running. We appreciate the urgency in your plans to accelerate the work of improving our grid infrastructure to achieve net zero by 2050.
Minister, our view is that we have to achieve net zero by 2035. The commitment to draw up plans to achieve this is, of course, a critical part of our co-operation agreement. Could you please set out specific plans, including specific measures, investments and policies that you will be adopting to accelerate these improvements in time to achieve net zero by 2035? What would need to change, do you think, in order to achieve that even more ambitious target? Also, what mechanisms are in place to ensure that the improvements do align with the constantly developing technological landscape, particularly in the field of energy transmission—there are always new developments? So, how are you ensuring that you're on top of those developments?
And to turn to the question of devolving more grid powers to Wales, our view as a party is that we need to devolve these powers in order to tailor our energy strategy as a nation to respond to some opportunities and challenges. Can you tell us more about this, please, including any discussions that you've had with the Westminster Government on the devolution of those additional powers? How do you think that devolving grid powers would assist our ability as a nation to make decisions that are locally tailored for the benefit of our communities?
Now, this has been raised already, but often major renewable energy developments onshore are opposed in localities, and, too often, people feel that such developments are imposed on them, rather than them happening for their benefit. Now, I heard your response to Janet on the gold standard in terms of how we improve that relationship and that engagement with communities, and that is something that's very good to hear. But how do you intend to convey that message and communicate effectively with those communities, particularly those who aren't, perhaps, in the local groups and are in the know, but those who are less likely to be part of that discussion in the first instance? Is that an area where it could be a gold standard for people who don't usually engage? It's not that they're not interested, but perhaps they don't know how to engage and become part of the discussion.
I do appreciate that you've mentioned the need for communities to benefit directly from the infrastructure in their areas. Is there more that you can tell us about how you'd improve those links with communities? How exactly will you get local people's perspective so that they'd be part of the decision-making process? How will you ensure that it's not just certain areas or certain organisations or groups in areas that benefit from any community benefits, but that those are fairly distributed?
Finally, how will you work more closely with local businesses, schools, colleges and—building on what you've said about the gold standard once again—local groups to ensure that people feel that they are part of the changes and that they are things that will benefit us all and that they're not something that people feel is being imposed upon them, but is happening with their agreement? Thank you.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Delyth. A series of really important questions there. In terms of the acceleration of the infrastructure itself, that's why we've done the various pieces of work to set out both, as I said, from the top down and from the bottom up. It's quite important to have done both of those. So, we've done an assessment from the Government's point of view of the future energy grids for Wales, and you can see that in the report, and that's our assessment of both the developing demand and the changes in technology. So, it's quite clear. We do need to limit demand, but it's also quite clear that demand is accelerating. We all have much more tech now than we ever would; that's only going to accelerate.
And there are lots of opportunities for things in the home, for making sure that homes are fit for purpose for life, right down to—. I went to see a brilliant project here in Cardiff where people who were dependent on carers coming in to do things like open curtains and so on had had networks put in—and there are many available, but Google or Siri or Alexa, or whatever it is—so that they can tell the curtains to open and they can tell the heating to come on and all the rest of it. So, they're much more independent. That requires a lot more electricity; it's a lot more demand for that kind of thing. I think that will just become more and more common and we're building new houses now, so they'll have the capability of that built into them. People expect that broadband and LoRaWAN, as it's called—low-power wide area networks; I could not think of the acronym for that—which allows that kind of thing to happen in your home. But, to do that, we have to have really good transmission and distribution networks and we haven't had those in the past.
It's quite obvious, if you look at a map of the transmission network in Wales, that there is transmission on the north and south coasts and very little in the middle of Wales. We've got distribution networks there, but they're carrying from a long way off and it's really not fit for purpose anymore. It was quite clear in our meeting with the grid design teams that there are only a few routes that are viable through Wales, as I was saying in an earlier answer. So, we need to work on that and we need to make sure that the communities along those routes understand where they are and what can be done. I'm very dedicated to making sure that we can put that onto existing infrastructure, like roads and so on, where at all possible, for all of the biodiversity and nature issues as well as the sightliness or otherwise of it. And, as I said, where we would then know that the transmission network would have to be on pylons, we could very proactively work with communities that were sited along those routes—there aren't very many of them—to make sure that the communities understand what they get in return for hosting what is actually something that's an overriding national interest. Those communities should be rewarded for that—I really do think that. So, working with the renewable companies, and, actually, very importantly, as part of the co-operation agreement, working with yourselves on some of the community stuff that we're doing there, will really help that. We've employed community enablers to work and outreach those communities. We can use those enablers to do that. As we develop both the state energy company and the myriad of local community schemes that we have, we'll be able to develop that capability in our communities.
We also have a number of things we can't do with the current Government, because they are just politically in a different place to us. So, we would very much like the grid to be devolved. We'd certainly like much more power over Ofgem in order to be able to do a number of things around social tariffsand some of the way thatthe energy market works. It is an absolute nonsense that the renewables that are produced in Wales have the same pricing structure as the margin price of gas. That is clearly nonsensical; we'd like that changed. We say that all the time. If we could get some sense into some of that, then that would generate money in itself for the communities generating that, which would be very interesting.
There's a whole series of things, then, from the bottom up that we need to look at, so building on the good work of our local authorities, our local energy assessments, the community network that Siân Gwenllian and I have been working on and visiting for quite some time. We are getting a real strength at ground level into what that community wants and needs and then how we can plan for it in the future. So, there is a step change. I am so glad to see the holistic network design process finally starting. But the answer to your question, 'How can we accelerate that?'—well, we have a group of people working on that for us. I look forward to their report coming in. But we already know that what we actually need is upfront investment in the design and engineering capacity of the grid companies. Whether you think it should be privatised or whether it should be nationalised, you still need that capacity, you still need that upfront investment, we still need the engineering capacity to do that. So, it has to go alongside a net zero skills plan, which we've already announced, as well, and it has to have attractive propositions for engineers to stay. These are the jobs that would keep people in the countryside in Wales. These are the linespeople that keep the network flowing that give the good jobs to local people. So, there's very much a win-win opportunity here if we can get this right.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you, Presiding Officer. I want to emphasise the needs of the communities of the Heads of the Valleys in this debate. If anybody wants to see a masterclass in why privatisation doesn't work, any examination of the energy market since privatisation will give you the lessons that need to be learnt. Privatisation has been a disaster for consumers and a disaster for industry. The issues that we are facing in the Heads of the Valleys are that we simply do not have the infrastructure that we require in order to generate economic growth and business. The Welsh Government is investing the best part of £2 billion in upgrading the A465, and it's doing a fantastic job in doing so, and we are seeing greater interest in economic activity in the Heads of the Valleys than we've seen for probably the last decade as a consequence of Welsh Government investment, but it will be held back if we don't have the energy that we require to power those businesses.
I don't believe that the UK Government really cares about what happens in the Heads of the Valleys. I don't believe that Ofgem is going to deliver the profits for its various companies by investing in the Heads of the Valleys. So, that means that the role of the Welsh Government is absolutely essential in ensuring that our communities are not left behind as this infrastructure investment takes place.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Alun, I couldn't agree with that more. You'll be aware that we have a number of developments going on along the Heads of the Valleys infrastructure. We also have several energy parks in that area that I know you're familiar with, and it's really interesting to see how attitudes in Wales have changed towards that kind of energy production. So, we both need the large transmission networks and the distribution networks to go with them to fuel—. The Rassau industrial estate is aclassic example. The energy take necessary to fuel that kind of industrial development is there for all to see; we need to make sure it's futureproofed.
But, as you know I know very well, the way that the energy market works at the moment militates against some of the things we could do. So, at the moment—. The grid has to be balanced—I know you know that—and, at the moment, we often produce too much energy for the grid, and some of that energy has to be switched off, and the energy producers are paid to switch it off in order to make the grid balance. How much better would it be to divert that into electrolysers—not for hair removal, as Janet seemed to be suggesting—but, actually, to make green hydrogen with that spare energy? So, rather than switching them off, you switch them across. We need to have an energy market mechanism that rewards people for doing that, and we're in discussion about how that could be done. But while we persist in this ridiculous energy market at the moment that clearly can't happen.
We also need something that differentiates between an energy development system that has the capital expenditure, the capex, upfront,but then the supply of that is free—. So, you put the capital expenditure into the windfarm or the solar farm or the tidal, or whatever it is, and mother nature produces the energy for you. That's very different to a fossil-fuel generating system, where not only do you have the capital expenditure upfront, but you have capital expenditure and revenue expenditure all the time to produce the fuel to run that mechanism, and the idea that we treat those as the same in a single mechanism is clearly nonsensical. So, we do need to get away from that.
Here in Wales, we haven't got that devolved to us at the moment, though we would very much like it to be devolved to us, so we've concentrated very much on what we can do at a local level on our community energy projects and at local authority level. So, one of the things that Senedd Members will see just after the Christmas period, is that we'll start up again with our Be Mighty campaign, this time concentrating on making sure the Welsh public understand how much energy is produced from the waste food that they put in their caddies and so on. And you'll be very familiar with Bryn Pica, for example—that is a huge energy park producing renewables, renewable energy from our own recycling policy, and able to power quite a few of the businesses along the corridor that you're talking about.
So, because of the devolution settlement and its paucity, we've come at it a different way, but we've also got the holistic planning process in place to make sure that we are ready—if we can get a Government more sensible about devolution and energy markets, we're ready to push that button.

Russell George AC: Minister, there's a proposal in my own constituency at the moment for 132 kV lines to connect to the grid in Shropshire, so on lattice 132 kV lines. You will remember, about the same time we were both elected, the huge opposition there was in my own constituency. Now, there is a need for greater power supply in mid Wales, and there is a need to support smaller renewable energy projects to connect to the grid. So, of course, I am accepting of that, but what concerns me is that this project is about taking the power out rather than the bit about bringing the power in. What I wanted to get a sense from you, and the future energy grid report, is looking at the possibility of further developing local grid networks. So, by this—. For example, there's Clywedog dam: it produces electricity at the moment, but there's far greater capacity for that to be enhanced, and it could, through a local grid network, support a town such as Llanidloes. So, there's a much greater capacity to build those local energy networks, which would have far less opposition, they'd have far more community support—still a need for a greater grid connection, but there'd be less of a need and requirement for that greater, larger infrastructure that is so often opposed, and I wanted to get a sense from you on that.

Julie James AC: Yes, absolutely, Russell, I completely agree with that. So, we're very happy to support community energy companies—it's part of what we do through Ynni Cymru—to help put those kinds of closed loop systems—that's what you're talking about really—in place. We're very keen to make sure that those are viable entities in themselves. We had some problems with one down in my colleague David Rees's constituency recently, where the owner of the network went under and then we had some very severe difficulties. So, we want to make sure that they're sustainable models, so that you don't have an issue with the developer going bankrupt or something. But there are models that exist for that, and we do have people working right across Wales, enablers in the community, helping to do that.
If you have a project of that sort that you're interested in putting forward that I'm not aware of, please do write in and tell me, and I'll make sure that our energy developers know about it. We have local community organisers, so community engagement people, who help put groups together to put community energy networks in place. It's part of the work that Siân and I have been doing with Ynni Cymru, and we've seen a couple up in Siân's constituency that were really interesting. So, I'm really happy to work with you. But, yes, the answer to your question really is a simple, 'Yes, we are absolutely interested in doing that.'
There is, though, a need for the big energy transmission networks for some of the big industries that we're talking about, and we do need to make sure that we can do that as well, so, if you want to decarbonise steel, for example, then you have to have a massive energy supply in order to do that. So, we can't make the transmission need go away, but smaller distribution networks definitely help with that kind of project, I quite agree.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I just wanted to pick up on something you mentionedin your statement about the cables that Germany uses, and that you also mentioned in your response to Janet Finch-Saunders, because we know that Germany has been really successful in having renewable energy schemes in every single village and town all over the place, and they've just got a huge system of distributed transmission. So, I'd be very interested to find out what would be the possibility of using these cables and whether there's anything more you can say or is that the sum total of your knowledge at this stage?

Julie James AC: We're waiting on the report on the technical viability of cable ploughing and on the cost. So, it would be a mistake to think it's free or something—it obviously isn't. We need comparative costs; we need to know what the viable routes are—they're very likely to be longer than some of the other routes and so on. So, there are some variables in there.
There are some real technical issues. So, the voltage that the transmission network in the UK runs at is much higher than it is on the continent. That's why you have to have adapters when you go abroad and, actually, we have differing electricity systems and the need for differing kinds of substations, and so on, across the network to balance the grid. We need to understand whether the cables necessary to make that happen can fit, frankly, inside what is capable of being ploughed—so, bigger, basically. They're also required to be insulated, if they're in the ground, in particular ways.
So, we have a series of expert evidence coming in on this. We're very interested in it. If it would work, I'd be very happy to be pushing it forward. It works for distribution networks, there's no doubt about that, but this is the big transmission stuff, so, if you've got a big generating station, and it's producing goodness knows how many volts, what's the position on moving it in?
Very recently, the First Minister and I went up to open the Morlais tidal energy cluster with Menter Môn and that was really interesting, and if you saw the cables coming in from the sea there and going into the most enormous substation—transformers changing the voltage from what's produced into what can be taken into the grid—you could see that it's not just as simple as digging a small pipe.
So, people who are much more expert than I on this are having a good look at what is possible. It may be possible to do some part of it in that way and have substations either end, for example, or other solutions may be possible. I suspect that, in some places, it just isn't possible and we have got to have overhead pylons, but then other designs are also possible. So, there are designs in France, for example, that look like striding humans walking along, which are a lot more aesthetically pleasing to some than the standard pylons we have. So, other solutions are possible. But we are investigating all of the possibilities and we're just awaiting the report.

James Evans AS: Minister, in your statement, you state that Welsh policy starts with the presumption that grid cables should be underground wherever possible, and I totally agree with that presumption—I think that's right. As you're aware, Bute Energy have plans in my constituency for wind turbine energy parks and also pylons from the Radnor Forest going down through my constituency into my neighbouring constituency, Adam Price's constituency, in Carmarthenshire. Visual impact is a key planning consideration when looking at these proposals. So, a lot of constituents ask me what assurances can the Welsh Government give to my constituents back in Brecon and Radnorshire that the Welsh Government will take visual impact seriously and make it a key part of the planning considerations on developments of national significance on electricity infrastructure here in Wales?

Julie James AC: So, obviously, I can't comment on any individual applications—you wouldn't expect me to—but 'Planning Policy Wales' sets that out pretty clearly. It is our presumption that things should be undergrounded where possible, for all of the reasons that you've just set out. Where that's not possible, then work needs to be done with the local community about routes and so on, and the planning application would have to show good reason why it needed a particular set of infrastructures and why the transmission arrangements were as they were in order to get anywhere in the planning process. So, you can straightforwardly look to 'Planning Policy Wales'; it's set out there very plainly.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the Minister.

11. The Building Safety (Description of Higher-Risk Building) (Design and Construction Phase) (Wales) Regulations 2023

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item will be the Building Safety (Description of Higher-Risk Building) (Design and Construction Phase) (Wales) Regulations 2023. The Minister for Climate Change once again to move the motion. Julie James.

Motion NDM8399 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5, approves that the draft The Building Safety (Description of Higher-Risk Building) (Design and Construction Phase) (Wales) Regulations 2023 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 17 October 2023.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. The regulations are a cornerstone of the new regulatory regime for building control in Wales. They specify what constitutes a 'higher-risk building' for the purposes of the Building Act 1984. Buildings that come within this definition will, through staged implementation, be subject to an enhanced building control regime. The enhanced regime is being brought forward to improve safety in high-rise residential buildings. It was a fundamental part of Dame Judith Hackitt's recommendations as part of the new approach to managing fire and structural safety risks in higher risk multi-occupied residential buildings, outlined in her 'Building a Safer Future' report, commissioned following the Grenfell Tower tragedy.
These regulations will interact with future secondary legislation to be laid in the coming months, to ensure that registered building inspectors overseeing work on higher risk buildings have the competence required and restrict certain activities to these individuals; and to restrict oversight of building control for new higher risk buildings to local authorities. Dame Hackitt's report recommended a new framework for building control that initially focused on buildings of 10 storeys or more. In the White Paper, 'Safer Buildings in Wales: A Consultation', in respect of key aspects of the design and construction phase, we proposed to go further than this and include buildings of 18m or higher, or seven storeys or more, that contain two or more residential dwellings. These are referred to as category 1 buildings in the White Paper.
The approach of using height or storeys will help prevent avoidance of the rules and help ensure that the right buildings are captured within the scope of the description. Sorry, I'll read that again. The approach of using height or storeys—so, both of them are captured in the regulation; it's not an either/or—will prevent avoidance of the rules. The description of a higher risk building is broadly the same as the White Paper proposed, but includes buildings with one residential unit or more, rather than two. And, as proposed in the White Paper, there are some exceptions. These exceptions include, for example, military barracks and prisons. Officials have worked with both the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of Justice to agree this position, as both ministries have their own building and fire safety arrangements. We believe it is right that these are maintained. The amendment to one residential unit from the White Paper proposal is to bring the description in line with requirements in respect of combustible cladding. We've also specifically included children's homes, hospitals and care homes that meet the height or storey requirement to help protect those who may have limited mobility or need assistance in safely evacuating if there is a fire.
It is estimated that there are around 170 buildings in Wales that will be in scope of the definition. Public confidence has understandably been shaken as a result of building safety issues that have been identified across the UK. It is a priority of this Government to set the foundations and expectations to restore that trust and confidence. Diolch.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you, Minister, also. We considered these regulations on 6 November, and our report and the Welsh Government's response are available from today’s agenda to inform Members in this afternoon’s debate—or, this evening, rather.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: These regulations, as the Minister has outlined, define what is meant by a 'higher-risk building' for the purposes of section 120I of the Building Act 1984, which was inserted into the 1984 Act by Part 3 of the Building Safety Act 2022. And, as the Minister has outlined, there is a real importance to bringing these regulations forward from a policy perspective. Our report on the regulations contains two technical reporting points, and both points have been raised because we think some further explanation is needed.
In our first reporting point we noted that, in regulation 2, it is unclear why a specific definition of a 'dwelling' has been included and why it only makes direct reference to the inclusion of a flat. Our report goes into much more detail than I am able to this afternoon, but I would just say that the inclusion of the definitions of 'dwelling' and 'flat' require further explanation. But, on this matter, the Welsh Government told us that the definition of 'flat' and 'dwelling' in the draft regulations are similar, indeed, to the definitions used in the Building Regulations 2010, the intention being to make the definition as accessible as possible, particularly to those most likely to be interacting with the regulations. The Welsh Government has acknowledged that a different drafting approach could have been adopted, and was indeed considered, but they are satisfied that the drafting that we currently have achieves the policy aim. And we note that explanation, Minister, and the position, of course.
In our second technical reporting point, we note that the origin location of definitions of key terms in the regulations are only to be found in footnotes, rather than in the definitions themselves. This applies to the definitions of 'His Majesty’s forces' and of 'visiting force'. Now, additionally, the regulations specify that the definitions of 'care home' and 'children’s home' have the meaning as provided for in Part 1 of the Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016, but do not identify the specific provisions in Part 1 of that Act. This also occurs in the definition of 'hospital', when referring to an 'independent hospital' within the meaning of the Care Standards Act 2000. Therefore, the implications are that the reader has to search those Acts to discover where the terms are found within them. This seems like a technical issue, but it's to do with the accessibility of law.
Now, we consider that it would have been preferable to have the relevant section numbers included in the definition in each case, to aid the reader to locate and understand the definitions being used in this instrument. However, on this matter, the Welsh Government has told us it accepted that a different approach could have included more specific signposting, and we note that, however, the Welsh Government does consider there is no ambiguity in the draft itself and that it does meet the policy intent of applying the appropriate meaning of the defined terms to the definition of 'higher-risk building'. So, we note that explanation and that position too, Minister, and we simply draw these matters to the attention of the Members of the Senedd this evening. Diolch.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I want to raise just one minor issue, Minister. I've read the proposed regulations, and, indeed, have read the regulations for England too, and I note that a high-risk building is described as a building of 18m in heightor with at least seven storeys, but, as you've mentioned, there is a series of exceptions, namely, secure residential institutions, hotels, military barracks or military living accommodation. Now, despite reading the regulations for both England and Wales, which have the same exceptions in both nations, I can't find the rationale behind those exceptions. I now understand that there is an exception in military circumstances because of the regulations themselves, so, I understand that, but perhaps I've missed something. It appears to me that some of these other buildings—hotels, for example—could be higher risk buildings too. So, can the Minister please explain why these buildings specifically are excluded?

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Minister to reply.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'll just thank the Members for their contributions today. And just in the specifics for Mabon, we have not included military and prisons because there's a separate regime for them and we don't want any confusion. We haven't included hotels as they're actively managed properties with a whole series of fire issues of their own that they have to comply with and are not primarily used for accommodating vulnerable occupants, and, so, have a different set of regulations to go with them. We've been very specific about the height requirement with a view to avoiding any avoidance measures, so that's why the height and the storey. And if you look at the regulations, it actually tells you where to measure from as well, so there's no argument about whether, you know, the stone at the bottom is included or the roof is included or something. So, it's been very specific. So, I think it is pretty straightforward.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Will the Minister take an intervention?

Julie James AC: Yes, of course.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Just on the point about hotels—and perhaps I should know the answer to this and I'd be grateful if she could clarify it for me—in the Vale of Glamorgan, various hotels have been repurposed for very good-intentioned reasons; do they fall under different building regulations, as you indicated, because they are still hotels, but yet they would be housing vulnerable people, or do they have to have separate conditions under the building regulations because they've been repurposed for a given period of time?

Julie James AC: So, if they meet the height requirements, which most of them won't, but if they met the height requirements, then they would fall under this regime, if they were used for semi-permanent housing, effectively. But the use of the word 'hotel' is for people who are staying overnight for a holiday, for leisure purposes, so, effectively, they've been 'repurposed' in inverted commas for that purpose; so, they would become temporary accommodation effectively for that purpose. But I'm not aware of very many that meet the height requirements, in fact, for this legislation. We will be coming on to legislation as part of the Building Safety Act 2022 that will meet the requirements for buildings that are below this height. This is for the higher risk, high-rise buildings. I mean, if you are aware of one, do write into me separately because it would be interesting to look at an example of that.
Just in terms of what the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee said, just to reassure him that we are planning to make a couple of minor additions and amendments to the footnotes of the regulations as a result of the report. They will aid accessibility in respect of referencing and ensure the accuracy of it. They are: a citation for the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006, the citation for the Care Standards Act 2000, which will be corrected—as you pointed out, the wrong year was used in the draft—and it will signpost to section 2 of the Act as a result of the report of the LJC committee.
So, on the basis of those remarks, Llywydd, the legislation will provide the basis for more rigour and oversight for these complex residential buildings, where the impacts of fire and structural failings have the potential to be devastating, with a high loss of life, as we saw in Grenfell, and I therefore recommend them to the Senedd.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections, and the motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

12. The Vehicle Emissions Trading Schemes Order 2023

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Item 12 is next, the Vehicle Emissions Trading Schemes Order 2023. The Minister for Climate Change, once again, to move the motion—Julie James.

Motion NDM8398 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5, approves that the draft The Vehicle Emissions Trading Schemes Order 2023 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 16 October 2023.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion. I'm pleased to be able to bring forward the Vehicle Emissions Trading Schemes Order 2023. The vehicle emissions trading schemes, or VETs, are significant interventions to support the decarbonisation of road transport in Wales. Starting from 2024, the schemes will mandate that 22 per cent of new cars sold and 10 per cent of new vans sold in Great Britain will be zero emission. This will rise to 80 per cent and 70 per cent respectively by 2030. The policy is estimated to save 23 million tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent between 2024 and 2050 in Wales. The Order establishes these Great Britain-wide schemes that will contribute to Wales's and the United Kingdom's emissions reduction targets and net zero.
VETs consist of four trading schemes. They will operate by limiting both the numbers of new non-zero emission vehicles that may be registered in Great Britain and the carbon dioxide emissions from such vehicles. The new policy framework will replace the UK's existing new car and van carbon dioxide emissions regulations, whichwill cease in Great Britain with the commencement of this Order. It will be preserved in Northern Ireland for the time being.
The committee on climate change has welcomed this as an important policy measure. I want to offer my thanks to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their scrutiny of the Order, and urge Members to support the motion. Diolch.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you once again, Llywydd, and thank you again, Minister. We considered this draft Order on 6 November, and our report and the Welsh Government response are available from today's agenda to inform Members in this evening's debate.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: This is genuinely interesting, Minister, for those who follow the legal and constitutional peculiarities and particulars of these regulations and Orders. I'll explain why. As you've said, the Order establishes Great Britain-wide trading schemes, which will operate by limiting both the numbers of new non-zero emission vehicles registered in Great Britain and the carbon dioxide emissions from such vehicles. There's the policy intent, and it's why the climate change committee, on which I sit as a Member, has indeed welcomed it and wants to see this proceeding. But our report on the draft Order contains five technical reporting points, which may seem strangely forensic and mundane but are actually genuinely interesting. The first of our technical reporting points notes that the Order has been made in English only, and the Welsh Government's explanatory memorandum states,
'As the Order will be subject to UK Parliamentary scrutiny, it is not considered reasonably practicable for this instrument to be made or laid bilingually.'
This is indeed a routine explanation provided by Welsh Government. However, our committee has looked at this for some time and we've had some concerns for some time, not to do with the Welsh Government per se, but we're actually unclear as to what are those procedural barriers to secondary legislation being brought forward in Welsh. So, as a result, Llywydd, we will shortly be undertaking a piece of investigative work, working with sister committees, and in the UK Parliament and others, to see what more can be done to understand what these barriers actually are.
Before I comment on the remaining four technical points, I would like to make one broad observation, which will be of great interest to those who follow the arcana of these legal and constitutional issues like hawks. According to the Welsh Government, the Order was drafted by the UK Government, with, in quotes,
'input from the Welsh and Scottish Governments',
and therefore the response to our report has been provided by the UK Government. Now, this is really interesting. This could be unprecedented, so we thought it worth drawing to the attention of the Senedd. What that means, though, is that it is not apparent to us from the response we've received what the Welsh Government's views are on the points we have raised. Is it that they simply concur with the UK Government, but it's not made explicit? In which case, the Minister could make it explicit today that she agrees, but maybe we could look at a way of making it clearer in future iterations if the same methodology is taken forward. It's an important point of principle that the Welsh Government, of course—and the Minister will know this—is responsible for statutory instruments laid before the Senedd and which a Welsh Minister will ask us to approve. So, we believe it is evidence from the response to these four technical points, indeed, that the UK Government's drafting style, and how the Order will be considered by the UK Parliament, appears to have dictated this Order's construction. Now, that's not a good or bad thing; it's just a thing at this moment. So, my remaining comments will highlight why I've made this observation.
Our second and third technical reporting points have been raised because we believed further explanation was needed. In our second point, we noted that the term 'banked' has been defined for the purposes of Part 3 of the Order, but it is a term that also appears in Part 4. The response we received states that it would have been preferable to define the term for the purposes of Part 4, but that the UK Government does not consider any doubt could arise as to what is meant by these terms—to go back to my earlier comments—and it considers that scheme guidance will make the situation clear to scheme participants. So, I would ask the Minister in her remarks concluding to confirm if the Welsh Government considers no doubt could arise. We've been told by the UK Government, but is that view of the Welsh Government as well, which echoes the earlier comments I made?
Our third reporting point notes that the phrase 'relevant national authorities' has been defined in footnotes. Now, there does not seem an obvious reason for including the definition in footnotes, which are non-operative parts of the text, rather than in the body of the Order itself. The response we've received states that the legislation passed by this Senedd—the Legislation (Wales) Act 2019—does not apply to the Order, and that instead, it is— stick with me— the Interpretation Act 1978 that does apply. Due to the availability of section 11 of the 1978 Act, the UK Government does not usually repeat definitions within the text of statutory instruments where those expressions have already been defined in the parent Act—I go back to the UK Government—and the UK Government believes it would risk criticism from the UK Parliament’s joint committee on statutory instruments if it did. Now, we're grateful for that explanation, but it goes back to the earlier point—we're dealing with, if you like, a UK-made instrument and we need to know the Welsh Government's views on it.
And our fourth and fifth technical reporting points highlight potential defective drafting in the Order. In the fourth point, we highlighted what we think is an error in article 110(16)(f), as it appears to seek to remove words that do not exist from an EU regulation. The UK Government agrees with us, but considers that the issue 'would not be problematic', in their words.
Our fifth and final reporting point also relates to a potential irregularity in article 110. Article 110(16)(h) seeks to replace the phrase 'light commercial vehicle' in point 2 in Part A of Annex 3 to EU Regulation 2019/631. However, the phrase 'light commercial vehicle' appears on two occasions in point 2, and it's not clear whether one or both occurrences are meant to be substituted. And the response we received from the UK Government states that there is no doubt that the light commercial vehicles referred to in point 2 are those that are referred to in point 1. We would respectfully—our committee would respectfully—suggest that this does not appear to be the most accessible way of drafting law.
So, Minister, we understand this is quite an interesting one for us, because we think it is unprecedented, and I wonder if you could reflect on these matters in your concluding remarks there. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Delyth Jewell AC: I think that there is a need here to raise a matter that we've touched on a number of times in this Chamber, which is the implications of the UK Government's u-turns on environmental policy, and the implications for net zero for Wales. The advent of a new environment secretary, Steve Barclay, and the fourth during your own tenure as climate change Minister, has made clear, I think, the lack of the UK Government's direction on environmental policy.
So, Minister, I would just like to ask you, please, to reflect when you're responding to this. Given that we are so dependent, regrettably, on the UK Government to achieve net-zero emissions by 2050, or indeed sooner, and given their lack of commitment to policies that will reduce emissions sufficiently, I'd ask you what assessment you think there will be of the implications for Wales coming out of the UK Government's revised approach to the ban on net-zero emissions vehicles, please?

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Minister.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. So, just on that point, Delyth, our analysis is that the moving backwards of the ban on fossil-fuel vehicles doesn't impact on this trading scheme. We're very keen to get this trading scheme in place for that exact reason—we'd like to hold the UK Government's feet to the fire, and we'd like to get the scheme up and running as soon as possible. If this is passed by all of the Parliaments who need to pass it, then it will go into effect, and the incoming Secretary of State—. It it will be in place by the time they get there. So, that's where we are with that.
On Huw's series of comments and remarks, this, as he well knows, is a UK-wide scheme. Each of the Parliaments has been asked to pass it in the exact form that it's in so that the trading scheme works as a coherent whole. Obviously, the Northern Ireland Executive is not in place, so it's not able to do that, and so there's a holding position from Northern Ireland. But, otherwise, the other Parliaments have all been asked to do it exactly in the same way, so that there's no ambiguity and it can't be challenged. The Secretary for State for Transport, I believe—let me just check; yes—will be the scheme administrator at the UK level, and we have agreed that they will be the authority for issuing the guidance, with a view to making it UK wide. It's our assessment that it would not work if it was confined to the Welsh geographical boundary, and that's pretty much the answer to all of the rest of the points. But I very much look forward to the piece of work the committee's promising us on the wider point.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch. Minister, that's really helpful, and I don't want to prolong the debate, but it may be, not necessarily with you—. It's the question of when there are UK instruments being passed that we have clarity on the Welsh Government's view. Implicit within the responses we've had is that Welsh Government concurs with them, because you haven't said that you demur from them, but it may be something we need to work on across Government, to say, 'If we do this again, then what we need to do is just have some form of clarity of words to say, ''And we agree"'. It's something as simple as that that we can discuss.

Julie James AC: I'm more than happy to work with the committee and with the Counsel General about the style for this. But you can see the overriding policy intention is to have identical schemes across the UK, and therefore we've complied with the UK Government's ask on that, not least because we're anxious to get the scheme in place in case they do change their mind about it, and I'd quite like it to be in place as soon as possible.
On that basis, Llywydd, I thank the Members for all of their remarks and contributions, and I ask them to support the motion. Diolch.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion to Suspend Standing Orders

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: We now have a motion to suspend Standing Orders in order to allow the debate on the next item of business. The Minister for Climate Change to formally move—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: —to suspend Standing Orders.

Motion NNDM8401 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Orders 33.6 and 33.8:
Suspends that part of Standing Order 11.16 that requires the weekly announcement under Standing Order 11.11 to constitute the timetable for business in Plenary for the following week, to allow NNDM8400 to be considered in Plenary on 14 November 2023.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: Formally.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The motion is to suspend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

13. The Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations 2023

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: That allows us to discuss the Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations 2023.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Believe it or not, but it's the Minister for Climate Change to propose the motion.

Motion NNDM8400 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5, approves that the draft The Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations 2023 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 7 November 2023.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I see Members across the Chamber are very surprised that it's still me.
Very seriously, though, Members will be aware of the ongoing situation in the middle east, and the increased violence and conflict has escalated further, following the events on 7 October. British nationals and those with dual nationality may wish to return to the UK, and some may have already done so. We need to prepare urgently for those who are fleeing conflict, to ensure they arrive to a place of safety and security. The UK Government has decided to disapply the habitual residence test to people with the right to enter the UK from Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza strip, east Jerusalem, the Golan Heights and Lebanon, to allow them to access the support they require immediately after their arrival. People are being evacuated from those affected territories will therefore be able to access financial support, should they need it. Assessment to entitlement will continue as normal, but the need to wait for this support will be waived. The Welsh Government welcomes this decision and, as a nation of sanctuary, we need to act now to ensure we reflect that position fully in Wales.
The Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) Regulations 2014, which make provision in Wales for which persons from abroad are eligible or ineligible for social housing and housing assistance, are currently misaligned with the disapplication of the habitual residence test. Therefore, we have laid draft regulations before the Senedd to address this and to ensure access to housing and housing assistance is available to those in need coming from the affected territories.
You'll note, Llywydd, that, as in previous similar circumstances, we have acted promptly and introduced the regulations more quickly than normal, due to the extreme urgency the situation necessitates. I wish to thank the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for considering the regulations in less time than is normally taken, yet still providing efficient and rigorous review.
The Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations 2023 will provide British nationals, others not subject to immigration control or treated as such and anyone with immigration leave and recourse to public funds evacuated from the conflict in Israel, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights and Lebanon with eligibility of housing and housing assistance. To be very clear, this provides eligibility for British nationals and other eligible people only who return from the affected territories.
Information is limited regarding the numbers expected to arrive in Wales. Whilst we accept some will have the means to secure their own home, or will have family and friends to return to or stay with, we should prepare for those who do not. As you will be aware, people are fleeing a difficult and distressing situation, and any support we can offer to those in need should be given. I do hope, Llywydd, that everyone across the Senedd shares this sentiment and will welcome the changes to the legislation. Diolch.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Chair of the legislation committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Indeed, we expedited our scrutiny of these regulations following a request from the Minister. The Welsh Government will know that we will always do our best to accommodate such requests, particularly when the regulations relate to serious and urgent matters, as those before us today do.
We considered the regulations yesterday afternoon, and our report is available from today’s agenda to inform Members in this evening's debate. The Minister has outlined that these regulations extend the eligibility for allocation of housing accommodation and housing assistance from local authorities to people who are British nationals and others not subject to immigration control, and anyone with immigration leave and recourse to public funds, arriving in the UK from Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, the Golan Heights or Lebanon. So, we can see the urgency of this.
Our report on the regulations contains only two merits reporting points. In the first, we have simply noted that the Minister for Climate Change wrote to us on 30 October seeking the committee's assistance in expediting scrutiny of the regulations due to the urgency. And in our second technical reporting point, we note that no consultation has been carried out in relation to the regulations, and that section 5 of the explanatory memorandum provides the explanation of why. So, in noting these reporting points, our committee is very pleased to expedite the scrutiny of these regulations so that housing accommodation and assistance are in place for those we can reasonably foresee will need our help in their time of need. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: These regulations amend the Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) Regulations 2014 to make provision for which persons subject to immigration control are eligible for an allocation of housing accommodation and for housing assistance. I welcome that there's an additional class of person, class O, or those who were residing in Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, the Golan Heights or Lebanon immediately before 7 October 2023 and who left Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, the Golan Heights or Lebanon in connection with the escalating violence there. It's heartening that the Welsh Government has taken the opportunity to offer support to these individuals.
I'd just like to draw attention to the situation in Nagorno-Karabakh, the enclave in Azerbaijan, a largely Christian community, which is experiencing ethnic cleansing at the moment. Over the last month, almost all of the estimated 120,000 ethnic Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh have fled west to Armenia. This exodus follows clashes with the Azerbaijani army, which hasreportedly killed hundreds of people, including civilians. So, what consideration has the Welsh Government given to extending housing support to those fleeing Nagorno-Karabakh and other conflicts?

Julie James AC: Diolch, Mabon. On that point, we like to work with all refugees and asylum seekers coming in. My colleague Jane Hutt, the Minister for Social Justice, and I work very hard indeed to accommodate any refugee or asylum seeker coming. These regulations specifically are to do with the way that the immigration rules work, with access to financial assistance that the UK Government only has power over. Unfortunately, I don't have the power to extend that. So, we are proposing these changes because these regulations specifically deal with people who have recourse to public funds and to have access to financial assistance. Other schemes are available in Wales for other asylum seekers and refugees, and I'm very happy to work with you and the Minister for Social Justice on any group of refugees that needs our help.
In terms of the legislation and justice committee, Llywydd, I just want to thank the Chair and the members of the committee for working so swiftly with us in these difficult times. I recommend the regulations to the Senedd.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

14. Motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill is next. The Minister for Climate Change to move.

Motion NDM8402 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that Senedd Cymru in accordance with Standing Order 26.36:
Agrees to dispose of sections and schedules to the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill at Stage 3 in the following order:
a) Sections 1-20;
b) Schedule 1;
c) Sections 21-22;
d) Schedule 2;
e) Sections 23-30;
f) Long title.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: Formally.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I have no speakers, so the proposal is to agree this motion. Does any Member object? No. That motion under item 14 is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

15. Debate: Stage 4 on the Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Item 15 is next. This is the debate on Stage 4 of the Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill, and the Minister for health is to move the motion, Eluned Morgan.

Motion NDM8403 Eluned Morgan
To propose that the Senedd in accordance with Standing Order 26.47:
Approves the Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill.

Motion moved.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. As I've noted throughout the scrutiny of this Bill, the main reason for introducing it was in response to changes in the way that health services are procured in England under the provider selection regime of the Department of Health and Social Care of the UK Government. What we have sought to do through this Bill is to fill a gap that would have ben created by those changes, and to avoid inconsistency between the procurement of health services in Wales and England, and the possible negative impacts of that.

Eluned Morgan AC: We've brought forward this framework Bill mainly by necessity, to give us the opportunity, should we wish, to align ourselves with the provider selection regime, which is the new mechanism through which health services are procured in England. Because it's a framework Bill, the powers give us the flexibility to align, if we want, but also to create a new procurement regime that best suits health service delivery for us and our ambitions set out in 'A Healthier Wales'. This flexibility means we can be agile and responsive to future changes here in Wales, across the border in England, or in emergency situations such as we experienced during the pandemic.
I am, however, cognisant of the fact that the flexibility provided under a framework Bill such as this is not ideal, as the full details of the proposals are not there in black and white. But as I've demonstrated throughout the Senedd's scrutiny of the Bill, I'm fully committed to being as open and transparent as possible in the development of the new procurement regime. I've already committed to a full public consultation on the operational principles of the new procurement regime, and I wish to restate that commitment to all Members here today.
In that vein, the UK Government's Department of Health and Social Care has now published their provider selection regime regulations, and my officials are currently considering its operational elements and whether it's an appropriate fit for Wales. As such, we're developing an extensive consultation document that will be published in the coming weeks to seek stakeholder feedback and help inform our policy position going forward.
Going back to the Bill itself, the scrutiny process, whilst shortened, has nonetheless been rigorous and challenging, and rightly so. It has, however, been conducted in a constructive manner throughout. I am, therefore, grateful to each and every Member who's participated in its journey, and especially to the Chairs and members of the Health and Social Care Committee, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee and the Finance Committee. I thank you all for your time and your input.
I want to give a special word of thanks also to the committee clerks, Senedd lawyers and other Commission staff for their hard work and support throughout proceedings. Whilst it's not the biggest Bill, it has been done at speed, and couldn't have been achieved without your co-operation and dedication. I'd also like to thank you, Llywydd, for agreeing to the fast-track timetable. Finally, thank you to the stakeholders, in particular colleagues in NHS Wales, who provided significant input over recent months, and, subject to the Bill passing here today, will no doubt continue to do so as we progress through to the consultation, development and implementation of the new regime itself. I'm also keen to take the opportunity to put on record my thanks to the team of dedicated officials, including one of whom has recently left the Welsh Government, who have worked so hard over recent months to get us to this point. Diolch yn fawr i chi i gyd.
In closing, I thank Members and stakeholders once again for their hard work and co-operation. This Bill is vital to the continuity of clinical health services in Wales, and I urge all Members to support the Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill here today. Diolch.

Gareth Davies AS: I'd firstly like to start by putting on the record my gratitude to the Minister for her clear willingness to co-operate to ensure that this Bill received appropriate scrutiny, and benefited from valuable input from all sides of this Chamber. This has been my first experience of working on a Bill as a Member of the Senedd, and it has been truly encouraging to see such an extensive level of co-operation and common ground. When I first stepped up to be a Member of the Senedd I did so to support and stand up for a sector in which I have given over a decade of my life, knowing that our healthcare workers and patients deserve better. It is my sincere hope that this legislation will contribute to that aim, and I’m proud to have played my part in ensuring that it is fit for purpose.
I must also commend Mabon ap Gwynfor for quickly getting up to speed on what is certainly a technical and complex piece of legislation, and for ably handling the final phase of scrutiny on this Bill for Plaid Cymru, following on from Rhun ap Iorwerth’s efforts in the previous stages. My colleagues and I were happy to support his amendments in Stage 3, as I believe we share a vision of what we wanted to see from this Bill. It also goes without saying that the work behind the scenes by the clerks and the legal team has been invaluable. Their efforts have allowed us to truly get to grips with the details in this fairly complex legislation and ensure that our amendments achieved their intended impact.
This Bill may just be a couple of pages long, but it carries considerable weight. In the early days of scrutiny I made it clear that, whilst we as Welsh Conservatives intended to support the Bill, we wanted assurances that there would be sufficient arrangements in place to ensure transparency and accountability so that we may have peace of mind that both patients and providers would be served fairly by this legislation. I’m pleased to say that I believe we have achieved that to an acceptable extent.
It is apparent, I think, for most of us here today that the Welsh NHS must reach out to the private sector where necessary in order to survive as a public service. It must no longer be the case that provision for our Welsh NHS is marred with opportunistic overpricing that drains our public coffers with no additional value to patients. It is my hope that this Bill will guarantee value for money and facilitate the fostering of strong and beneficial relationships between the public and private sectors, and above all, protect the Welsh NHS. In line with this theme of accountability, as you know, I was pleased to work with the Minister and her team to produce and vote through my amendment at Stage 3. To me, this showed a real intent to make the best of this Bill, and I really appreciate that.
With all that said, I am of course disappointed to see only one of my proposed amendments make it over the line. Among the amendments I brought forward were a number that would have tightened up and futureproofed the Bill while simultaneously putting to bed many people’s concerns in certain areas. My amendments would have secured parity of respect for social care on the face of the Bill and would have ensured that this area of procurement would be suitably prioritised, leaving no room for it to be left by the wayside. I also regret that my efforts to grant peace of mind to our cross-border communities through the guaranteed continuity of effective cross-border health services was not taken on. However, as I’ve stated previously, I accept that this Bill does for the most part address my concerns.
As we now look ahead to the implementation of this legislation, I hope the concerns of stakeholders continue to be listened to, and that the Minister keeps to the commitments she has made throughout the stages of scrutiny. Diolch.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you to the Minister and her officials, the health committee and the research and clerking teams there, and the research team in Plaid Cymru that supported Rhun and I so effectively on this journey.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Our health service is one of our greatest national assets. Its foundations are built upon the core principles of equality, fairness and compassion for all, irrespective of financial status or social position. But if we are to preserve that status of our NHS as a public institution that is free at the point of use, there is a duty on government and elected law makers to protect it from the influence of privatisation and cronyism. That protection is what Plaid Cymru has sought to embed into this Bill at every stage of the legislative process.
Plaid Cymru's position on this Bill has remained firm throughout. Whilst we acknowledge the fact that there will be some circumstances in which the external procurement of goods and services might be necessary and beneficial, we have been clearthat the rules governing external procurement practices must be robust, transparent and fully aligned with the interests of staff and patients. The example of the UK Government's personal protective equipment procurement scandal, which saw millions of pounds of public money being paid to friends of the Tory party in exchange for sub-par equipment, clearly underlines the danger of having inadequate legislative frameworks in place.
We should also consider the fact that both major Westminster parties have previous form for advocating and implementing privatised models within the health system. It's imperative, therefore, that our health service here in Wales is not undermined by similar abuses of governance and the prospect of privatisation being ushered in through the back door. As such, the amendments we introduced during Stages 2 and 3 were designed with an overarching ambition in mind. We wanted to ensure that our health service procurement processes give the best of both worlds, providing flexibility for goods and services to be procured externally, while guaranteeing that the powers contained in the Bill could not be misused; that voluntary and third sector suppliers of goods and services would be explicitly prioritised above private suppliers; that procurement practices upheld a range of public interest criteria, such as delivering value for money and broader social benefits. From the beginning, we sought to work constructively with the Government to achieve these objectives. And while we were pleased to secure cross-party support on a few amendments, which included placing an obligation on Welsh Ministers to publish summaries of consultation responses, we are disappointed that the Government was unable to support the majority of the sensible measures that we brought before the Senedd.
I can't help but feel that we may have missed an opportunity here to ensure that the relevant safeguards governing procurement practices are as watertight as possible. We look forward to scrutinising the Welsh Government on the development of future regulations through this legislation, which, as always, will be guided by our unwavering commitment to defending the NHS as a public body that's free at the point of use. Diolch.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Minister for health.

Eluned Morgan AC: Once again, I'd like to thank Members, those who contributed and officials for their work on this Bill and I encourage Members to support this Bill in the vote this afternoon. Thank you.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: In accordance with Standing Order 26.50C, a recorded vote must be taken on Stage 4 motions. So, we will defer voting on this motion to voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

16. Voting Time

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: And unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will move immediately to the vote.So, the only vote this evening is a vote on Stage 4 of the Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Eluned Morgan. Open the vote. I close the vote and declare that there were 50 in favour, no abstentions and none against. Therefore, Stage 4 of the Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill has been fully agreed. Thank you.

Item 15. Debate: Stage 4 on the Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: For: 50, Against: 0, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The meeting ended at 19:50.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Peter Fox: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of rising traffic congestion in south-east Wales on local residents?

Mark Drakeford: 'Llwybr Newydd' and our national transport delivery plan set out our approach to addressing congestion across Wales. In the south-east, we are taking forward ambitious projects including the core Valley line enhancements and five new rail stations on the south Wales main line.

Tom Giffard: Will the First Minister provide an update on the South Wales Metro system?

Mark Drakeford: Working with Transport for Wales, we continue to develop metro systems for south-east Wales and Swansea bay to deliver safe, accessible and affordable public transport. This work will inform regional transport plans, which are due to be submitted to the Welsh Government by the end of March 2025.

Joyce Watson: What assessment has the First Minister made of the impact the abolition of the shortage occupation list, as recently recommended by the Migration Advisory Committee, would have on Wales?

Mark Drakeford: On 2 November, the Welsh Government wrote to the Migration Advisory Committee to express our concerns that abolition of the shortage occupation list would disadvantage key sectors in Wales. Used effectively, the list can attract overseas workers into areas experiencing shortages and help create a flexible labour market.

Jayne Bryant: Will the First Minister outline how the Welsh Government is supporting the semiconductor industry in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: As one of our key economic strengths, the Welsh Government remains committed to supporting the growth of the semiconductor industry. With global demand for semiconductors set to explode in the coming years, I welcome last week’s announcement that Vishay Intertechnology is investing in the thriving semiconductor cluster in Newport.